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  #31  
Old 03-19-2016, 01:24 PM
jeepster jeepster is offline
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Jack there were 4 knives in this group that I found. The fellow was an Air Force veteran. He had his SSN on all four. The other 2 knives were a Faisel set.
Ronnie
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  #32  
Old 03-19-2016, 02:26 PM
Ta2bill Ta2bill is offline
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Is the Faisal set for sale Ronnie?
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  #33  
Old 03-19-2016, 04:16 PM
jeepster jeepster is offline
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I didn't buy it Bill because the Toothpick had an incorrect sheath. The sheath with it was for a straight guard knife and not a forward curved hilt. The other sheath was fine. The sheath for the toothpick was vintage, just wrong. I can put you in touch with the fellow that has the knives.
Ronnie
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  #34  
Old 03-19-2016, 05:01 PM
Ta2bill Ta2bill is offline
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That would be great!

I purchased a sheath from you because I had the same problem with on of mine....
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  #35  
Old 03-19-2016, 05:43 PM
jeepster jeepster is offline
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Ha Bill I was looking for that sheath this week. Forgot that I had sold it. That was a nice Old JRB for a forward curved hilt. I hope I sold it for a lot of money.....
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  #36  
Old 03-19-2016, 06:08 PM
Ta2bill Ta2bill is offline
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You didn't................lol
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  #37  
Old 03-19-2016, 06:21 PM
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Jacknola Jacknola is offline
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You kids...don't make me come up there....😄
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  #38  
Old 03-19-2016, 06:39 PM
Ta2bill Ta2bill is offline
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Bring some knives to show off when ya do!
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  #39  
Old 03-19-2016, 11:07 PM
jeepster jeepster is offline
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Bill I will be sending you a pm with the guys contact number and name. He is selling the knives for another man. He is very fair as I got a good deal on the two I just sold.
Ronnie
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  #40  
Old 03-20-2016, 12:44 AM
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Jacknola Jacknola is offline
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Back on subject.... I think I have some answers after several hours of careful study. Pictures and diagrams will be forthcoming.

I am now relatively confident there was no special forged shape for the Solingen teethed model 14. All those "spear point" teethed Solingen 14s started life as conventional Solingen 14 blades that were reground in the Randall shop to the final shape with beveled top before teeth were added.

The catalyst for the altered blade profile was the request for teeth on the prototype model 18 in early 1963. Gaddis states that Gary Randall himself created the first teethed example working all night on a Solingen 14 blade to reshape it and then grind in the teeth.

So fabrication of the original saw teeth models used Solingen 14 conventional blades that were then reground to accept teeth... grinding down the top edge into a bevel... which made the "spear point" shape. It seems pretty clear that the Solingen teethed models preceded the Orlando blade teethed models ... at least in the early test cases.

Finally, examination of the stamp on the original 1963 prototype model 18s made from Solingen 14 blades show they had the old type "stamp" across the ricosso. This indicates (but is not proof) that the well known "Randall made - Solingen" etching probably began being used only after mid-1963 or so.

I suspect that the original 1954 order for 500 Solingen 14 blades was delivered with the old "stamp" and it wasn't until a new order for resupply of the Soligen blades that the etched trademark was adopted. What date that happened is not clear from reading Gaddis. It may take some documented knives ... or perhaps a call to Mr. Gaddis to pin that date down. Or there is one person still around who was very involved in that project and who probably knows the answer.. Mr. Gary Randall himself.

We might be able to narrow down the date the logo changed. Hunt shows a 1964 (?) brown Micarta, filled hole, Solingen teethed model 14 in his "Randall Models in Wartime" which I do not have. The obverse side of the same knife is shown in his "...Military Models" which I do have, but of course the Solingen stamp cannot be seen to confirm what logo was being used at that time. Perhaps someone will help by looking in "Wartime" and reporting if the stamp is the ricosso one or the Randall-made-Solingen one.

Also interesting is the more radical shape of the original Solingen 15s, but that is a different topic.

Last edited by Jacknola; 04-22-2016 at 09:31 AM.
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  #41  
Old 03-20-2016, 02:05 AM
jeepster jeepster is offline
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Jack the knife you just purchased from me was of course a Solingen Humpback. The teeth were ground into the blade without removing the hump. You can clearly see that when you look at the blade. Is this what you are saying?
Thanks.
Ronnie
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  #42  
Old 03-20-2016, 07:45 AM
Ta2bill Ta2bill is offline
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Jack, I have all of Hunt's books, and the knife that you are asking about is described on page 138 and illustrated on page 139. It is the second stamp variety as you suggest, I believe. Let me take a picture of it for you.
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  #43  
Old 03-20-2016, 08:06 AM
Ta2bill Ta2bill is offline
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Brown Solingen Model 14

3 pics
Attached Images
File Type: jpg jack1.jpg (70.2 KB, 23 views)
File Type: jpg jack2.jpg (49.9 KB, 25 views)
File Type: jpg jack3.jpg (46.7 KB, 25 views)
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  #44  
Old 03-20-2016, 04:29 PM
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Jacknola Jacknola is offline
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Here are comparison pictures.

Saw-teethed Orlando and Solingen (both about 1967-68):



Solingen 14 compared to Solingen saw-teethed 14 (both about 1967-68):



Orlando 14 compared to Orlando saw-teethed 14 (both about 1967-68):



I'll overlay the Orlandos and also overlay the Solingens tomorrow when I have better graphic tools. But eyeballing the knives, the outline of the Solingen teether will fit inside the outline of the conventional grind. This shows that the Solingen teethed could easily have been re-ground from conventional blades. However, overlaying the Orlando blades, the Orlando teethy outline does not apparently fit within the outline of the conventional blade. This would tend to indicate that the shop forged the teethed model somewhat independent of the conventional grind.

These photos also illustrate the slimmer ricosso and blade on the Solingen compared to the Orlandos. This is also true of the conventional Solingen vs Orlando 14 blades. I've always wondered if the original prototype 14 made by Mr. Randall in 1954 and provided as a model had the Solingen slimmer ricosso and blade. The slimmer dagger shape of the point of the Solingen teethy compared to Orlando teeth is also evident.

Re: the Solingen blade stamp, change from ricosso to Randall made logo.

Bill, thanks for the photos. With their help we know the old ricosso logo was used as late as mid-1963 and the randall etched logo was definitely being use in brown Micarta times, 1964-65.

I've looked at most of the records that mention the Solingens. Sheldon wrote that the old ricosso stamps were used on Solingen 14s until 1965, though the Randall-made Solingen logos began to be seen seen in 1963.

His timeline means that the last of the original 500 Solingen blades that were delivered in 1955 (with the ricosso stamp) were not made into knives until 1965. And from deduction, more Solingen blades were ordered in 1963 as the supply of original blades diminished. The new blades as delivered seemingly simply had "STAINLESS" on the ricosso, and they were subsequently etched at the Randal shop (?) with the familiar Randall made Solingen logo. According to Sheldon, there were a couple of years the different logos overlapped, which makes production sense.

Until the confirmed dates about the use of the two logos can be sharpened (pun intended) with further documented knives, I'll go with Sheldon's timeline. I know he attempted to verify the data in his book though that is always a work in progress. Perhaps I'll check with him on how he developed these dates.

Last edited by Jacknola; 07-28-2017 at 12:04 PM.
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  #45  
Old 03-20-2016, 05:40 PM
Ta2bill Ta2bill is offline
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A couple of points to ponder:

It's a well known fact that the Randall shop had to re-grind ALL of the Solingen blades to be suitable for their intended use. So it would stand to reason that they would have similar grinds, more or less, the those being hand-forged in Orlando during that same time.

Also, for the most part I have seen that if a Model 14 is ordered with sawteeth, the blade will be swapped out for a Model 18 grind, and then have the teeth cut into it. A Model 14 clip blade with sawteeth made after 1963 is quite a rare occurance. Prior to the introduction of the Model 18 in 1963, it was not out of the realm of possibility to add sawteeth to the Model 14, typically the tenite or early micarta knives.

Not sure if any of this is pertinent to your studies, but thought that I would mention it.

Last edited by Ta2bill; 03-20-2016 at 06:00 PM.
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