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Heat Treating and Metallurgy Discussion of heat treatment and metallurgy in knife making.

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  #1  
Old 11-15-2013, 11:18 PM
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Knifemaker96 Knifemaker96 is offline
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Heat treating 5160 steel

Okay I have a few questions about heat treating a 13 inch kitchen knife made from 5160 steel.

#1 Should I quench it tip first vertically? Or would it be better to quench it edge first horizontally?

#2 If I have to quench it horizontally how do I? what are the steps?

#3 If i have to quench it tip first how should i do it?

#4 how many times do i need to go through the quenching process?

#5 What temperature should I temper it at and for how long and how many times do i need to do it?

#6 oh and before the treatment how many times do i need to normalize it?

I think thats all, but if you have any pointers or anything else please share.
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  #2  
Old 11-15-2013, 11:40 PM
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GHEzell GHEzell is offline
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#1 Doesn't matter.

#2 & #3 Simply submerge the blade.

#4 Once is enough.

#5 375-400 degrees, twice for 2 hours each.

#6 Try normalizing at 1550,1500,1450 and quench at 1475-1525F.

Quench in warm oil (5160 is not to picky about oil type, I suggest vegetable/canola oil), don't even think of quenching 5160 in water... 5160 responds best to a 5-15 minute soak at temp before quenching to attain max hardness. Some folks swear by 3 quenches with this steel, I'm not one of them...


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  #3  
Old 09-10-2014, 12:16 PM
ivance ivance is offline
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Dear Sir/Madame,

For a long time I have a desire to create high-quality combat dagger, but my lack of knowledge prevents that so I am sending this message in hope that you will be able to help me. One of my friends complimented your site as one of the best when it comes to information about knives so I chose you for the help. I want to make a knife grinding method because the classic forging needs a large workshop that I myself, unfortunately cannot afford, although the grinding is a lot easier and gives identical results.

Here's the information that I need:

Steels that I want to use for development, O1 and 5160, are in the group of highly carbonaceous tool steels. I need information on how to recognize blade tempering method which is identical with those which I have mentioned. Another thing I need is how to copy the shape of the blade so that my copies are completely identical with the original knives that I will not copy, whether there are any special rulers for making stencils, etc.? As for the heat treatment I also need information on how to partially temper the blades of these materials (note that I want to make only double-edged). As for the handle of the knife I want to make them exclusively from micarta. And finally I need information on how to maximize knife polishing and the cut of the knife so that they are smooth as a mirror, and without the slightest irregularity. If you have several useful links that can help me i would be very thankful to you
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Old 09-10-2014, 02:24 PM
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R. Yates R. Yates is offline
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As a true Beginner I would Suggest a Very Much Forgiving Steel as the 1St Rule ! Second look at the Beginner's Section of this forum and pack a lunch and a few drinks for quite a bit of reading as well as research for the Beginner Knife maker . Even a New Born Child Must learn to roll over before Crawling ,Walking and then Running.

What you are attempting is to skip every entry level aspect of knife making and jump right into the Master Level of knife making that just will NOT work and you will find folks less apt to supplying you with that information as you would more likely be injured much more quickly at doing advanced level work then starting with the Very Simple Beginners course work and Knife making .

This Forum Does take pride in helping others . However we also have Pride in Providing Safety Information and the Correct way of doing things for Newbies just getting started in the Knife making field .

You Have a Ton of work ahead of you before ever attempting and I Quote "(note that I want to make only double-edged). As for the handle of the knife I want to make them exclusively from micarta. And finally I need information on how to maximize knife polishing and the cut of the knife so that they are smooth as a mirror, and without the slightest irregularity.")

Happy Reading in the Beginners Forum Section invance.

Ret, Sgt. Robert D. Yates


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  #5  
Old 09-15-2014, 08:15 AM
ivance ivance is offline
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Can someone please tell me is it true that the heat treated knives and steel can lose its hardness if it is too much exposed to the sun or other sources of great heat?
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Old 09-15-2014, 08:28 AM
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Hunter10139 Hunter10139 is offline
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Sitting out in the sun will NOT soften your knife. You need tempering temperatures of probably around 350+ F to actually have an affect on your knife.


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Old 09-16-2014, 01:12 PM
ivance ivance is offline
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Thank you very much for that information. I need to know one more thing, i have found a book about forging knives, it is written by Heinz Denig, do you know anything about that book? I want to order it soon if it is worth the money. Can you tell me is it able to forge knives with CPMS30V steel in the workshop and what would be its price? I have heard that this steel is very good.
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Old 09-16-2014, 02:05 PM
Doug Lester Doug Lester is offline
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Forging any stainless steel such as CPMS30V or any other air quenching steel is something only for very experienced knife makers. The working temperature range for those steels tend to be narrow to very narrow and working outside of that range produces broken blades. They also need a high temperature oven for heat treating. Something like 1080, 1084, 80CrV2, or 5160 is going to be a lot more forgiving in both forging and heat treating.

I've never read Heinz Denig's book. I like The Master Bladesmith by Jim Hrisoulas.

Doug


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Old 09-16-2014, 03:00 PM
ivance ivance is offline
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I understand. So what do you think about K-110 steel? I have heard it is highquality tool steel, is it good for begginers? Note that i want to forge knives, not to grind them.
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  #10  
Old 09-16-2014, 03:15 PM
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Naboyle Naboyle is offline
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Re read Doug's post. Those are the steels you wanna start with.
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  #11  
Old 09-21-2014, 08:29 PM
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GHEzell GHEzell is offline
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K-110 is Bohler's version of D2.
C 1,55
Si 0,25
Mn 0,35
Cr 11,80
Mo 0,80
V 0,95
I would not suggest this steel for a beginner, nor would I suggest trying to forge it.

I'd suggest ordering 1084 from http://newjerseysteelbaron.com/shop/1084hc/

Where are you located?


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A good friend told me one time about forging "What is there not to like, you get to break all the rules you were told as a kid, don't play with that it is sharp, don't play with fire, and don't beat on that"
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See some of my work.
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  #12  
Old 09-22-2014, 11:07 AM
Doug Lester Doug Lester is offline
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There is a reason that those steels that I mentioned to you in my last post are recommended to beginner smiths who will be using a forge for heat treating. Not all steels are created equal. Here are the problems that K-110 will present. The 1.55% carbon is way above the level that you will need to worry about retained austinite formation. You will need a regulated high temperature oven to avoid this and they're not cheap for the size that we need.

The chromium level is well above the level that makes it air hardening. It also contributes to the steels narrow working range. Air hardening means that every time that you austinize the steel and cool it in air it will produce untempered martensite. You will need to end your forging sessions with a slow cooling in an oven or forge and you don't even think of striking the blade outside of it's forging range.

The molybdenum and vanadium will make the steel red hard. This translates that it won't want to move under the hammer. They also form carbides that tend to tear grinding belts up. That is why a lot of stock removal people hate this alloy.

Oh, and did I mention that this steel is expensive compared to lower alloy steels?

My suggestion is that you stop looking up steels to see which would be the neatest to use. Many or maybe even most smiths never move beyond the list of steels that you have already been given. They are that good.

Doug


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  #13  
Old 10-03-2014, 12:03 PM
ivance ivance is offline
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I understand. I guess I have to grind knives anyway because that is easiest way to make knife. I live in Serbia, can you please tell me how to recognize tempering method for O1 and 5160 steel? Forgive me but I don't understand english very well
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Old 10-03-2014, 11:58 PM
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Andrew Garrett Andrew Garrett is offline
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ivance,

What you seek is a primer--some base of information and education on which to form meaningful questions in a logical order. Some of you questions sound far above your obvious skill level. Kudos for being ambitious, but you must learn to walk before you fly.

Don't read one book--read three. When you are done, read a few more. Learn how many different knifemakers approach similar tasks. Then and only then, can you choose a path that fits your skill set, tooling, performance requirements, and aesthetic desires.

Once you are armed with this knowledge, make a knife. Chances are, your first one will be quite flawed. That's fine. Make another and it will be better. When you have learned through reading and study, asking specific questions here on the forums, and some honest experience, then your skills and the knives you produce will begin to have the qualities you desire. No short cuts. Pay your dues and people will line up to help you. Sooner than you will believe, awesome knives will be coming out of your shop.

As for grinding (stock removal method) versus forging, they are not technically equal as you suggest. Forging gives a smith far more control over grain direction than stock removal does. For the typical knife, even a hard used combat knife, the user will never know the difference. However, there are extremes where a well forged knife will yield higher levels of performance under very specific circumstances. I am exclusively a stock removal guy, but I have to acknowledge this fact.

Your first $200 should be spent on books. Enjoy your study, and good luck.


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  #15  
Old 10-04-2014, 06:52 AM
WBE WBE is offline
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Andrew, unless you speaking of radically curved blades, there is no appreciable difference in forged or stock removal in the common blade shapes. From the mill, grain is directional from the rolling process. Once heated to austenite, grain shape becomes random, and cannot be changed back to directional. What gives directional advantage is tiny inclusions and occlusions that are directional also from the mill rolling. Heat does not change them, but grains form boundaries around their perimeters. Forging does not change this. Forging allows the steel an advantage in that the steel can be curved if wanted, as a unit retaining the direction of these grain formations around the imperfections, and having more strength than shaping by grinding, but this is only of importance in definite and radical curves. As far as any anything else, forging offers no advantage to the steel itself.
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