Does everything need to be hardened and tempered

[LoneGoose]

Hey! Raw newbie here...been learning as much as I can...and have a couple of questions I haven't found answers to...

Sticking to stock removal method for now...

I just started cutting up some "Edger blades" that I picked up at a Sears that was going out of business. Package says they are hardened and tempered steel. Can I just grind out what I want, or do I still need to put them through the "harden" and temper cycles?

Related: When grinding out a knife out of a file. I have heard that files are really hard... do I need to "harden" it again? "Normalize" it? ...then Harden? Harden but quench only the cutting edge? Or can I just "temper" it?

Any help is appreciated!

[WBE]

You must temper the file. If you temper then grind it it without over heating, you're done. Temper at 450?, twice, at 2 hours each temper. Use a separate oven thermometer. Do not trust your oven dial. Then grind being careful to never allow any of the edge area to get hot enough to produce color. That is not real easy to do, but doable.

[Ray Rogers]

First of all, welcome to the forum LoneGoose! Second, put all that salvage steel to the side until you do know what you're doing and buy yourself some good blade steel. That way, you know for sure what you have and you know how to heat treat it. Nearly all blade steel is annealed when you get it so it's as easy to grind as it will ever be. So, you grind, then heat treat, then temper.

Edger blades are 'hardened' enough to be edger blades, not knives (at least not as good as you would want if you go to the trouble to make a knife). Everything WBE said about files is true enough IF the file you have is a really good one made of a high quality steel and not merely case hardened. Get the idea? Salvaged steel can be a tremendous waste of time if you don't know how to tell what you have. With a Newbie maker, it can be very frustrating to put all that work and money for fuel, grinding supplies, handle, finishing etc only to find out that very pretty knife like thing you just made won't cut worth a hoot. Buy some steel, it's cheap. Get some 1084 or 1080 or even 1075. It's very cheap and very forgiving in the heat treat and it makes a great blade.

PS

Fight the urge to make your first knife the biggest bowie or survival knife ever seen on this planet, make a blade about 4" long first. Put aside any ideas and pimping the first knife to the max - first, learn to make a functional knife. Nothing extra please, no file work, no damascus, and preferably no wood from your back yard unless you are already an accomplished wood worker. You can ignore this advice if you wish but you'll just be making a large learning curve into a HUGE learning curve ....

[Doug Lester]

Another thing, even if you have a piece of steel that is hardened to about HRc 58-60 and you manage to grind it without over tempering it, grinding hardened steel is something that makes your job harder and is something that I would not choose to do without a good reason. You will be able to grind and the steel faster if it has been normalized first. A single cycle will do pre cutting and grinding. Triple cycles for grain refinement can wait until after the blade is shaped.

You been given good advise on working with a known steel and keeping your first knives simple and on the small side. I recommend that you follow those pieces of advise to build your skills faster.

Doug

[LoneGoose]

Thanks so much for the input! It looks like one of my next steps is to find the materials and build a small forge/oven for heat treating. I am checking on sources/pricing for blade steel...but to be honest...cash is my biggest limiting factor in this new venture! My head is still swimming from all the new metalurgy termonology! I am definitely going for my first blades being simple and straight forward.

How would I find any blade makers in NH area?

[AUBE]

All good advice so far.

You can build a small forge for under $100...sometimes even under $50. If you have access to torches you can even do a simple heat treat with them...although it takes more skill to get consistent results. For an oven you can use a simple toaster oven...you can find them at second hand stores for like $10. Just do NOT trust the temp setting on the oven, you will have to watch the color of the steel to get the right temper.

As for metallurgy terminology....if you enjoy that stuff by all means pursue it. But I have seen a few people that spend so much time trying to figure out the metallurgy aspect that they never get around to making knives. Knowing the terms and exactly what is happening in the steel will definitely help you make the best knife you can, and make trouble shooting easier...but you can still make a good knife without knowing the difference between martensite and pearlite.

In the simplest way to word it the heat treating process for a plain high carbon steel is:

Heat the steel to the proper temp.
Cool the steel (quenching).
Reheat the steel to a lower temp 1-3 times to soften it slightly so its not as brittle and to remove stress.

The terms are to explain what is happening, and why it is happening. Something that is always nice to know but I've found can be pretty daunting to new makers.

As for finding local makers the forums are a good place, and also Knives Annual books have a directory in the back.

[Ray Rogers]

We also have a Makers in Your Area sticky thread at the top of this forum which might be of use ...

[Doug Lester]

Studying metallurgy is not required for knife making but it is nice to know the terminology so that you can communicate and understand others better. I would say that basic terms like ferrite, pearlite, martensite, austinite, cementite, bainite, carbides, austinization, normalization, annealing, and tempering are a good idea to understand. Some of the more technical methods like marquenching or austempering aren't necessary but it's at least nice to know what people are talking about.

Doug

[LoneGoose]

Doug, I will work on those terms...thanks for setting me up with the basic list...it make it a little easier.

Ray, I have checked out the sticky...searched it several different ways...have not been able to find ANY knife makers in NH, VT or MA. What am I missing? Are all the knife makers out west?

[Ray Rogers]

You may not be missing anything. The only people listed there are people who wanted to list themselves. Some didn't want to, some never thought about it.

A much more complete list of the knife makers in the whole country is in the Blade Annual. Basically, everybody whose been making knives for more than a year or two is probably in there. If you can't find a copy at a book store or gun shop locally, you can probably order one through Blade's website ...