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Ed Caffrey's Workshop Talk to Ed Caffrey ... The Montana Bladesmith! Tips, tricks and more from an ABS Mastersmith.

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  #1  
Old 12-11-2001, 10:49 AM
JohnM
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New guy, introduction, questions, long post.


Greetings to all of you. My name is John and I have been lurking here for awhile and have learned a lot from these forums and the tutorials in particular. I spent a lot of time reading most of the posts in Ed's forum and have certainly filled a lot of gaps in my knowledge. Some of you I have even met at the Eugene show or a local hammer-in. I am impressed with the wealth of knowledge available on this site for makers of all kinds. I also appreciate the civility displayed here, the understanding that there are many different ways to do things and the lack of contentious posts and unpleasant personal attacks.

I have been making knives part-time for about five years. I got started when I met Ed Mortenson in Darby, MT, and bought some of his kit knives. I then had the great fortune to meet Bob Engnath and correspond with him until his untimely demise. I finished a number of Bob's knives until he convinced me to start grinding my own and recommended 5160. By then I knew I was in this for the long haul and purchased a Bader III. I have done stock removal on 5160 and 1095 for the last three years, and, quite recently, tried my hand with some O1. I am now starting to forge some of my own blades, and, as always, am still experimenting with heat treating, which leads me to my current questions.

Oil fires - how do you guys prevent them or manage them? I use a stainless drywall pan for my quench tank and a modified version of the Hrisoulas "light" quenchant formula, 1 part diesel, 3 parts ATF and two parts motor oil. The reason for the light formula was that I was using it for 1095. It works excellent for 1095 or 5160 when doing an edge quench. Anyway, I do my heating like Ed does, very carefully using a torch to heat only the edge to critical. I originally used a limiter plate, but kept getting oil fires on the surface with part of the blade out of the oil. I can always blow out the fires, but fire and oil are never good in a shop and make me very nervous. So, I changed my methodology and took out the limiter plate and began quenching the whole blade. This stopped the fires, but my temper lines are not as consistently placed since you can never heat two blades exactly the same - at least I cannot. The blades will pass a bend test like this once tempered and the edges have performed well. Do any of you have the fire problem? Does the vet grade mineral solve this? I have been real happy with the results of my quench medium, but worry about the fire issue and wonder if the limiter plate is a better idea for long-term removal of variables. Is quenching the whole blade changing the grain structure of the spine even though not heated to critical?

Scale after forging - what is the best way to take it off? I was practicing forging this weekend and created two knives, one out of an old file and one out of 5160. Both shaped up well. When complete, I normalized them and then annealed in vermiculite overnight. Yesterday I went to rough grind them. All I had left for rough belts was Klingspor 60 grit blue zirconia. It took three belts to grind through the scale, set the bevels and flaten the sides. As the belts wore down, they would just smooth the scale and not cut it. The steel itself was dead soft and easy to grind when I got through the scale. This scale was nasty and far worse than normal mill scale. I wonder, what do you guys do to either prevent the scale or remove it? Obviously, the Klingspor belts will not be a cost-effective solution.

Thanks for reading and your patience with this long post. All comments welcome.

JohnM
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Old 12-11-2001, 10:53 AM
Don Cowles
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Glad to have you with us, John! Welcome.
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Old 12-11-2001, 11:55 AM
Michael Wise
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New Guy


Hi John

Some people use vinigar to cut the scale. I use muriatic acid. It works a lot faster but is a little harsh and the blade should be cleaned well after the soak. It only takes about 30 minutes in the acid and over night in the vinigar. You can clean the blade with soapy water. Most masonery supply stores carry the acid.

Michael
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Old 12-11-2001, 12:10 PM
Raymond Richard
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Welcome....


John, try soaking your blades in vinegar over night or untill the scale and decarb come off. It will dissolve it. I just went to a pan with a lid, I believe it was the last knife I edged quenched that I wasn't able to blow the fire out. I was able to smother it with a sheet of aluminum. Bought a fire extingwisher the next day, only took me 8 years. Now if a fire starts I just slid the lid on it as long as I can find it. That last flair up was the first time the blowing didn't work. I'm being alittle more cautious now. Did you go to the Mini show?
Ray
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Old 12-11-2001, 02:49 PM
Tiaan Burger
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Re: Welcome....


Hi John

Get youself a Co2 extinguisher. Cheap to refill. My last bad flareup had the oil boiling hot, flowing over the edge of the pan, flames licking the ceiling. The fright of my life!

scale: I use HCl, aka muriatic or Hydrocloric acid. Hardware stores locally sell it as "swimming pool acid" I get it at about 55% concentration, which I dilute with a equal amount of water to be about 25% conc. It takes about 30 minutes. Use a rotary wire brush on a spindle or on your portable drill to get the steel clean after the etch. (wear glasses!)
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Old 12-12-2001, 09:22 AM
JohnM
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Thanks


Thank you all for the warm welcome.

Michael, Raymond and Tiaan - thank you for the recommendations for the scale. The wife has plenty of vinegar on hand so I will give it a try this weekend and see how it works. There are a couple of places locally where I can get muriatic acid when I get impatient.

Raymond & Tiaan, the first thing I did after that first fire was get a good CO2 extinguisher. I should have had one before that. I have had it for a couple of years though. It is probably ready for a test and recharge.

JohnM


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Old 12-12-2001, 09:46 AM
Cactusforge
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Re: Thanks


I have used both vinager and acid, question how to dispose of acid a safe way. Gib
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Old 12-12-2001, 11:23 PM
Ed Caffrey
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new.....


Hi John!
Sorry for not welcoming you sooner. Seems that your questions have been answered.............what a great bunch of guys! I guess all I can do is to let you know your welcome here anytime, and as you've already seen, there are a lot of good folks on the CKD forums!
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