Knife making ethics

I finished my first knife and sheath last week. I know I didn't really make the knife, I just assembled it. I started with a knife kit which contained a preground and polished blade.

However I did start over on the paperwork and polishing to remove what I felt were unacceptable scratches, and I brought the blade to a beautiful mirror finish. The Dymondwood scales ended up quite striking after polishing as well.

I took the knife to a local gunshow this past weekend and showed it to some friends who freaked out that I had made the knife. One guy asked "who made the high dollar knife?".

Although I told I made it, I didn't mention it was maid from a $20 kit.

My question is, would it be unethical to make a table full of these knives with various scales and sell them at a local show for a reasonable profit considering the time I put in? I am not going to put my name on anything since I didn't grind the blade. I thought this would be a way for me to pay for a grinder so I can start grinding my own.

Thanks for your advise while I finished this project!!

Mike Rust

I don't think it would necessarily be wrong to make a table full of knives and sell them for a reasonable profit, but, ethically speaking, I would let people know (if they asked) the knives were made from a kit. If nothing else, I wouldn't put a "maker's mark" on the blades, since I didn't actually make the cutting part of the knife. For the one particular knife you describe, however, it sounds like you did have to "remake" it . Sort of like making a knife from a file, without the shaping. Tough question. This is just my opinion, though. I will refer to one quote (paraphrased) by Wayne Goddard: Material's cheap. It's the labor that makes knives cost what they do. Sell the knives, and make a healthy profit, but be honest about them. Best of luck.

As a general rule in the knifemaking community, if it's a kit, identify it as such. Only those blades that you actually ground or forge out yourself should carry your mark. I have had many discussions on this very subject at shows, and can tell you that one thing makers, buyers, and collectors alike simply hate, are knifes that are not represented for what they acutally are. There is nothing wrong with finishing blades and selling them, but what happens when someone wants to order a "special" knife, and you can't make it? Then the truth comes out that the blades are kits, and your reputation is shot before it ever gets established. Simply not worth it. Everyone in the knife world depends on his or her reputation, anything that may tarnish that reputation is a bad thing, and most of use will go to any length to ensure a good reputation stays that way. Kits are a great way to learn knifemaking basics, and have their place in the market, the problems start, when all to often, kit knives are respresented, whether intentionally or inadvertently as being custom/handmade. People assume a lot, and usually when someone sees a table full of blades, they automatically assume the person standing behind that table made them. Some have the courage to ask, but others don't, and those are the folks you need to be concerned with.

Hi Mike,

You have raised a difficult question. In Scandinavia, many if not most knifemakers (not YOU JENS!!! - nobody else can grind them sweet little sheepsfooties and city edges like you can) )use blades forged by sombody else.(See the Fixed Blade section and one of Thorndal's beauties for an example). In Japan, traditional edged weapons were (are still, in rare cases ?) the product of the highly specialized talents of 4 or 5 (acan't remember at the moment)persons and assistants, each of whom completed one phase of weapon construction and adornment. Are each of these people less of a "maker" because they do not personally craft these knives and swords through all steps? For that matter is a stock removal method maker less of a maker that a person who forges? And is the person who forges less of a maker than the person who smelts the ore, then forges, or who mines the ore, smelts it and . . . you get the idea.

Going in the other direction I understand from the general discussion part of these forums that the Guild is debating about whether the use of computer controlled machines to mill a knife (profile and grind) somehow disqualifies a piece as a "custom knife." Paul Fox makes some blow you away one of a kind custom knives and I think he uses rather fancy machines to do a great deal of his work. Looking at some of the M. Walker pieces, I can't imaging he does that awsome keyhole dovetailing of metals with hand files.

The bottom line is be honest. Don't represent a knife as something it is not and don't sell it to somone you know or even suspect thinks it is something it is not. From your post it is obvious you know this already. Pass up the chance for a few extra bucks for clear and sweet sleep. My dos centavos.
Saludos - John

Mike,

First off Congrats on completing your first blade, kit knife or not it is a huge step!! We all had to start somewere and kit knives are a great way to do it.

Now to your question.

Really there is nothing wrong with finishing out kit knives and selling them. In my opinion it would not be right to put a makers mark on them though because this would be mis leading.
As long as the customers knew that you did not auctually gind the blade it would be ethiclly fine.

I think that you would find it much more rewarding to put the $$ and Time that you would spend to buy and finish the Kit knives into equiptment to build your own knives. It really isn't that expensive, and it is well worth the effort IMHO.

Welcome to the CKD and if you have any questions we are here to help!

Eric

Since I haven't tried to sell this knife, I haven't thought much about it but here is a question:
1. bought a 3" small lock back kit from Texas Knifemaker's Supply.
2. bought a damascas blade from Atlanta Cutlery. The blade is around 6" in length with a full damascas tang. I cut the blade in half just behind the choil and rounded the end with the intent attempting my first folder -using the pre made blade. The other half of the blade was a little over 2" long and had a nice pattern.
3. Took the blade from the lockback kit and used it as a pattern to grind the 2" damascas piece into a replacement for the kit blade. I had to thin the damascas stock on sander also.
4. used the small reshaped damascas blade to complete the kit (re-etched). Added bone scales I had laying around.
The knife came out a lot better than I expected.
I don't intend to put any maker's markings on it or even sell it - since it is my first folder. But I plan on using this technique till I get good enough to make the whole knife.
So, on subsequent knives how would you guys describe them? I can supply pics on email - I'm just not bright enough to post em here.
Thanks in advance.

It is fine to sell the kits knives that you made. I sold 2 or 3 that way when i was first starting, but let the people know that they are kits!! Try not to mislead people that you ground the knife. I like doing kits for people for a low cost knife for those who can't afford a full blown custom. Sometimes you have to spend some time in getting the scratches out or fixing the grinds, but they make a good knife that people can specify the handle materials they want.

Squarenutt, wow..never thought of that idea for a locking knife!!! i wanna see pics!!!

The only advice that I may add is basically to fortify what has been stated already. Don't misrepresent your product. Let them know. Don't expect to demand the same price as someone that has made the blade from scratch.


If you ever want to grind, come on over sometime, maybe when it isn't so warm.

Craig

Thanks all for the great comments and suggestions. I'm definitely going to head the advice. I'm not talking about selling these knives for a high price. By the time I finished my first one I had about 12 to 15 hours in it( including making the sheath). I know I will speed up. I have around $25 in supplies in each knife. If I could sell a knife for $50, I could by 2 more kits, and so on. I want to make as many as possible, because I learned so much making the first one.

You all are right about starting to grind. I am dying to give it a go. I don't care if I do get bloody knuckles at first!!

Thanks again
Mike

Thanks for the good advice. I would love to watch a grinder in action....definitely when it cools off. I take it you are in my area?

Thanks
Mike

Hi Taz

Hate to admit in front of all these folks I'm not bright enough to post pics using the third party hubub. But I'm not. It must save the forum's server a bunch of bandwidth.
Anyway, here is my email address. Send me your email address and I'll send the pics. Terry Primos is the person who told me about the forum. I have burdened him with a couple of pics in the past. He was gracious enough to give me some good advice.
When you get them the pics are:
1. A complete blade as bought from Atlantic - I always seem to buy things in twos - along with the blade I cut down for a folder. Still planning on making that one. The missing part is what became the blade on the small lockback.
2. The kit from Texas Knifemaker's. Again I bought two.
3. A picture of the folder.
4. Another picture of the folder. Since my digital camera is low tech, I held a large magnifying glass in front of the knife for the second shot. Sort of a homemade zoom lense.
Thanks for your interest and suggestions are welcome.

wwrrsmith@mediaone.net