vinigar etch, help stop rust?

[Joe H.]

im wondering if a vinigar etch will help stop rust and corosion?
im also curious if putting metal paint under a cord wraped handle is a good idea to help stop rust?
I live on the west cost of vancouver island, about a 2 minute walk from the ocean, so rust is probably going to be a problem for me. the humidity level never drops blow 70%!!! and all the salt in the air. I left a pice of scrap steel sit for about 2 days, and it had little rust spots on it.

[Ray Rogers]

Any etch will help prevent, or at least slow down, rust and corosion. Etching is just a way to speed up the natural patination process of a carbon blade. That's just a slow and gentle corosion process. Once that's done, the blade can resist further corosion of the same intensity. Of course, in your environment, allowing patination to happen naturally is almost suer to include some rust and pitting so giving it a boost is probably a good idea. Still, salt air is about as bad as it gets for carbon blades so you'll probably still get some spots. Oil the blade lightly, or wax it, for an extra layer of protection.

There are coatings you can use but they still leave the edge unprotected so I have found them to be fairly useless for my purposes. As for the handle, I guess paint would help, seems like it should. But, so would those other things we've already discussed........

[Joe H.]

thanks.
I was going to oil the blade after every time I use it, Im even going to put a plasic lined pouch on the sheath for an oil rag of some thing of the sort.
now im definatly going to etch it with vinigar, it will also add more of a tactical look won't it? probably look good with the cord wrap any way.
thanks again, I was reading about blade coatings and stuff, but they did sound some what usless in my case, and I dont want to go about blueing my blades just now.
for the paint, no one would see it unless I took the cord off, so it sounds like a plan to me.
oh, and you said wax the blade. how would I go about doing that?
thanks for your time,
Joe

[TexasJack]

There are caveats to Rays advice. If the acid is not neutralized and removed, the blade will corrode faster. Also, if you etch deep enough you will set up corrosion cells.

Oil is NOT the answer!! Think about this: What happens when oil and water are put together? The oil floats to the top, leaving water in contact with the surface. Same happens on the surface of the knife.

Wax is much better. It's higher molecular weight keeps it from floating off, and it won't attract dust.

You could try bluing the blade - after all, that's what is used to protect gun barrels. It's really a controlled rust. (Think of the solid oxidation on aluminum versus the crumbly oxidation on steel.) It requires oil or wax to protect the surface.

[Ray Rogers]

TexasJack is right about the oil, especially if you get the blade in water as opposed to just a wet atmosphere. Oil does float on water but that's free oil. Oil rubbed on steel isn't going to just float away in an instant. There is at least some surface adhesion at work there and perhaps even a chemical bond in some cases. But, in time, it will wash away. Wax probably is better.

Any etching will probably result in a gray finish and that can certainly look tactical. Vinegar is a pretty weak etchant (which is a good thing) but like Jack said don't over do it and create pits. Be sure you get all the vinegar off and the blade is very dry before applying wax, or even oil. How do you wax the blade? Put wax on the blade and rub it around I like Renaissance Wax because it is very light and thin and spreads easily so I know it covers everything. But, it leaves a very thin coat. That may be a good thing though. A thicker wax that leaves a thicker hard coating could become scratched and the scratches could hold moisture next to the steel . See, nothing is perfect.

You might want to consider a Kydex sheath rather than a plastic lining on a leather sheath. The plastic lining might make it harder for the leather to dry out and then you would have mold growing in there. No matter what sheath you use, I suppose it goes without saying that you do not want to store your knife IN the sheath (but I'll say it anyway).

Don't worry about it, try a few of these things and see what works for you. You can make another knife if necessary. If you are really concerned about rust or stains then use stainless. That's what it's for.

I have an O1 knife stuck in a stump outside with 9" of snow on it. Been there since last summer, will still be there when Spring comes. It's got some rust on it, for sure , but it still looks very serviceable. Point is, rust is just ugly, it isn't the end of the knife ....

[Joe H.]

thanks for the aditional info.
what kind of wax do you use? car wax?
also of note, im not going to be using a leather sheath at first because I have been focusing all my energy (apart from school and work) on finding a source for steel. I had not given much though to the sheath! but im going to find some tough material that will work for the time being. and I was talking about a seperat plastic lined pocket for my anti rust subsatnce, so that it would always be with the knife. not such a bad idea is it? I think im going to make a sheath that is similar to the tactical balistic nylon sheath you see with some knives. dont think im all about the fighting knives, they are cool, but I want a working blade, that is why I chose O-1 steel. I just find a utillity blade with a little bit of tacticalism (new word) to be quite nice. and im going to cord wrap the handle for my first knife. and on my next one, im going to try a hiden tang one.
and on a side note, my steel should be hear this afternoon or tomorow!!!!!!!!!
im excited about that.
Im going to stope rambling on (again), so thanks a million guys, you have been a great help,
Joe

[Ray Rogers]

I use Renaissance Wax because that's what I have handy. You can get it from sheffield's Knife Supply and other places. Carnuba wax, car wax, and something called Briwax can usually be found at hardware stores. I believe that Wayne Goddard judged Briwax (I think that's the right spelling) to be the best at protecting blades.

Ya, the plastic pouch for some extra goo sounds like a good idea. You still might want to consider Kydex though. It's very cheap and easy to work with and makes a very tough sheath. It will not hold water against your blade which might be a little more of a problem with ballastic nylon. It cannot rot and your blade won't be able to puncture it . There are ways to get much of this same performance from ballistic nylon but Kydex already has it. Kydex is slightly noisier in the field - which is the main reason some people prefer the nylon - but, if you aren't sneaking up on people , the slight noise you might have will be a non-issue.......

[hammerdownnow]

When I used to trap, we would rust our new traps on purpose, then boil them with the berries of Elk Horn Sumach. This would turn them a very jet black and slow the red rusting way down. We would futher retard rusting by dipping them in melted parrafin. I was wondering what made them turn black, and suppose it was a high tannic acid content of the berries. If that was so, then why didn't Indians use Sumach instead of Oak leaves to tan leather? If oak leaves are higher in tannic acid than why did we not use them to boil our traps? If tannin is the agent, then a tanned leather sheath could contribute to the patenation on a carbon steel blade. I don't know how much leather is still really "tanned" anymore tho. Roc (master rambler)

[Chuck Burrows]

couple of notes -
Natives brain/smoke tanned - oak tanning was a European method imported to the New World.

Tannin is the agent and all veg tanned leather is really "tanned". Most modern tanneries use quebracho bark extract rather than oak although a few small, specialty European tanneries use oak and some English tanneries also double tan with sumac. The tannic acid used for tanning is neutralized later in the process so there is no to little chance of tannic acid affecting a blade.

Joe - remember up until about 50 ors so years ago EVERYBODY carried a carbon steel blade - care of the blade is not that hard even up on the wet coast - I lived and worked for years along the Pacific North West coast from NW Washington to SE Alaska - always carried a carbon bladed knives and as long as I did my part, keeping it clean (and dry when possible ) they patinated, but never rusted even when working on a salmon charter boat - where everything got wet no matter what. I was using the knife for cleaning fish and as long as I kept it washed with fresh water and well oiled (I used a food grade oil such as olive oil since I was using it for food) it never rusted.

[DiamondG Knives]

Boy that brings back some memories Roc!

Had an Uncle that took me under his wing as a green horn, tought me all I knew about trapping. Had a 70 trap line I ran every morning before school, boy I miss those days!!

We also did as you described, boiled them first to remove the oil as best we could, then let them hang on the fence for a couple of weeks, then boiled them in a old coldren full of green, black walnut hulls, they sure did get black. makes you wander dont it. I havnt gotten a chance to try out Larry Kemps hand made walnut stain, but it sure looks like it will do the trick!

I have agree with Chuck, Ive found that a good cleaning, and drying, then a wipe down with olive oil will produce a very desireable patina on my carbon steel chefs knife, so Id assume it would on any other.

God Bless
Mike

[Joe H.]

thanks to every body.
I will look into Kydex, but I think right now im going to try and find something I already have, or can get localy. but in a couple of week, I might order some from, I for get the name, but they have an add in my tactical knives magazine and I have been to the site.
wile we are on the topic, what is needed to make a Kydex sheath? I know you heat it, and form it to you knife, but what holds It togeather?
also, do you think turtle wax will work?

I knew that people have been using carbon steel blades for a long time, I remined people of that every time they say, why not use stailess its better. then I have to explain that carbon steel (so I have read) makes a better working blade, as well as, I can HT at home with carbon steel. another thing I notice reacently is, we are realy blessed with such good blade steel, I cant inmagine trying to work with a copper or bronze knife, or even iron, although iron would be not so bad.

and just out of curiosity (and future refrance), are hidden tang knives hard to make?
thanks
Joe

[Ray Rogers]

To form my Kydex sheaths I use a $15 paint stripping gun. They look about like a hair dryer but they get a lot hotter. It doesn't take much heat to make Kydex pliable, 400 degrees maximum. Some people use their kitchen oven but the gun gives me better control, I think. The soft Kydex can be shaped by hand (wear gloves, it's hot!) but the best way is to press the Kydex pieces and your knife between two pieces of closed cell foam. Once shaped, the pieces can be assembled with grommets and a snap setter or with Chicago screws. All these tools - foam, screws, grommets, and snap setters - are inexpensive and usually available from anyone who sells Kydex. Sheffield Knife Supply in Florida is where I ordered mine.

" out of curiosity (and future refrance), are hidden tang knives hard to make?" No, not once you learn how.........

[Joe H.]

thanks for the quick reply.
I should shape it with my bare hands to toughen up my cooking hands. just kidding, but I bet one of the cooks at work could!
any way, im not about to try.
for a hidden tang, is it pretty much just drill a hole, file it out, and pin your tang in?
and what about turtle wax for protecting my blade? do you think It will work? I dont know much about car wax, I supose I should just try it and tell you, not the other way around.
I also saw some thing else at the store, it was with the carwaxes but It was not wax, i think it was similar, but you use it to clean, and it aplies a layer of oil(i think). also, if I use oil, is thinner better? or thicker?
I think my dad already has a heat gun so that saves me some $$$.
and on another side note, is it safe to HT indoors? im thinking in the woodstove downstairs, it is surounded by bricks, and unless the oil will splatter when I put it is I dont think it should be a problem, what do you think?
and one last thing, how do I heat the oil for the quench? I read that it should be about 120 F. and does it matter how big the magnet is that I use to check my blade?
thanks

[Ray Rogers]

We're wandering off into several different subjects that don't relate to the original thread so you might want to consider starting a couple of new threads. Makes things easier to find for those who search later.

Yes, that's a pretty fair description of hidden tang construction. Like everything else, there are degrees of sophistication that can be applied.

Turtle Wax would work, any wax would work. Oil would work too. But, according to a test Wayne Goddard did Briwax works best.

Thin or thick, you'll wipe the oil off after applying it so I'm not sure that would matter much. Taking a hint from the oil used on guns though, I would imagine that thin might be preferred.

HT indoors is questionable at best. I do it in my shop - NOT in my living area - and that's very important. When that blade his the oil there will often be a small fire and LOTS of smoke. If you do it indoors make sure you have some strong ventillators that will clear the air quickly. Even then, the smell will go all through your house, eventually, there will start to be a dirty, perhaps greasy, film in places the womenfolk will not be happy about, and any electronic devives within reach of that smoke will get one step closer to shorting out. These things are, of course, in addition to the possibility of burning down the house.

The common way to heat the oil is by putting a large piece of very hot metal into the oil, maybe several times if necessary to get the oil warm. More smoke....

[tmiller5087]

perhaps wiping it down with a rag with a lil penitrating oil on it after every use would help. or oil made for oilers in pnuematic devices. both of these type oils are supose to replace water.