kershaw 'damascus' real or fake?

[EdStreet]

I was looking at my kershaw shun classic santoku today and i've had the impression for awhile now that it's not true damascus or that good quality damascus at all. Now that I have several blades of some very good quality I even further doubt the kershaw stuff. I did see some at the local cooking store today and even it to looks fake.

Does anyone have any info they can share on this? Is it real layers or just etched to look that way. I am tempted to give it a good coat of etching solution to see what happens.

Ed

[fitzo]

On the four Shun Classic knives we have, it's quite "real". Good knives. We've used them all daily for 2 years now.

It's VG10 in the core, which is a good stainless. 410 in the layers. Not exceptionally hard, but that's what crocksticks are made for.

[EdStreet]

then why does it look so fake?

Ed

[fitzo]

I guess that would be in eye of the beholder and what your expectations are, Ed. It's not really etched to any extent, if at all, if that's what you mean. To me it looks somewhat like a coarse version of the layering in an old katana, or not-yet-etched damasteel.

added: perhaps it's because the layers are all the same steel, not alternating, and it doesn't have the differentitation of two or more stacked steels.

[EdStreet]

perhaps that is what I am seeing the same type steel and not real layering of different materials. I do have 4 of them and they are good knives but I have always questioned the materials

Ed

[Ray Rogers]

I haven't seen a Shun close up but aren't they supposed to be San Mai construction? If that's the case Ed, they don't look like damascus because they aren't damascus as we know it. They are simply some hard VG-10 sandwiched between a couple of sheets of 410, or perhaps several thin layers of 410. If that is in fact how those blades are made then it's very real, but it's only damascus in the broadest sense of the term ....

[fitzo]

It's 10 layers of SUS410 on each side, Ray. I would suspect the 410 "laminate" is made separately and then "san mai'd", so to speak, with the VG10.

What constitutes "real" Damascus steel? Wootz? Pattern welded laminates? Mosaic composites? Hot isostatic pressed powder layers ala Damasteel? Heck, I dunno. The definition has had what could only be called "drift" with time.

How you doing, Ray? Long time no talk.

[EdStreet]

ok this may clear things up somewhat, I hope.


the model in question.


the logo on the back.


just the blade.


some of the 'grain' looks more like a fake hamon than damascus to me.

the home site states this:

vg-10 'super steel' (composed of carbon, chromium, cobalt, manganese, molybdenum, silicon, and vanadium) is clad with 16 layers of SUS410 high-carbon stainless steel on each side, producing a 33 layered, rust-free damascus look.

notice here where they say 'damascus look'

Ed

[Ray Rogers]

Well, if that's 16 layers of 410 then I guess the lines between the layers must be decarb lines from the welding, otherwise there wouldn't be any visible layers since only one kind of steel was used. In that case, this is 'damascus' in the same sense that a piece of homogeneous cable being simply mashed flat could be considered damascus. The cable too would form it's pattern with decarb lines. The Shun's pattern is exposed by grinding the bevel across the layers. So, when I say that it is not damascus as we usually think of damascus, I mean there was no attempt made to create a pattern of any kind in the steel. We would start the damascus making process by welding to gether a stack of dis-similar metal plates and then introduce a pattern of some kind. For the Shun, they welded a stack of identical plates and stopped. The pattern is created during the grind.

I'm doing fine Fitz but I've been very busy lately. I still pop into Paltalk now and then but don't stay too long ....

[fitzo]

As I was saying, the words "damascus steel" have definitions that are broader to some, narrower to others. It is a colloquial term. Many argue that layered laminates are not "damascus" in any sense, but must instead be called "pattern welded". If it's not patterned, and only a flat laminate, is it still "damascus" regardless? Is "random" a pattern? Is san mai "three layer damasacus"? They are just names, not the things themselves.

Some would call welded cable "wire damascus" and others eshew that terminology. Which would lead to the interesting question of what does one call it if the cable happens to be comprised of more than one steel?

I understand (perhaps incorrectly) that Ed is questioning whether it is a welded laminate at all, or may indeed be some other technique that falls outside his definition of "real damascus". Unfortunately, discovery would take fancy lab equipment I no longer have access to or grinding up one of the blades, which I personally am not wont to do.

Regardless, it raises the additional question of what constitutes "real damascus", which I feel is impossible to answer since it has become a colloquial term and no longer "that steel which was traded along the Silk Route."

Ray, I hope it is "good busy." I haven't been in paltalk in some months. It has been an "interesting" summer here. Take care. Hope it's a good winter for you.

[Larrin]

It's not only 410, they often label similar damascus as "nickel damascus", whatever the other matrial is, it is two materials. It looks "fake" because there aren't that many layers and it isn't etched like most American damascus is. The damascus is produced by a factory as well, if that is contributing to the "fake" look. And they're just shooting themselves in the foot by labeling it as a "damascus look", rather than damascus. I think they are saying that a san-mai damascus isn't actually damascus. It's all superfulous to me, you buy damascus for the look, if you don't like it, don't buy it. If you do like it, then buy it.

[EdStreet]

Originally Posted by fitzo

As I was saying, the words "damascus steel" have definitions that are broader to some, narrower to others. It is a colloquial term. Many argue that layered laminates are not "damascus" in any sense, but must instead be called "pattern welded". If it's not patterned, and only a flat laminate, is it still "damascus" regardless? Is "random" a pattern? Is san mai "three layer damasacus"? They are just names, not the things themselves.

Originally Posted by fitzo

I understand (perhaps incorrectly) that Ed is questioning whether it is a welded laminate at all, or may indeed be some other technique that falls outside his definition of "real damascus". Unfortunately, discovery would take fancy lab equipment I no longer have access to or grinding up one of the blades, which I personally am not wont to do.

this is correct. I question the use of the 'damascus' term on this line of products. Even tho the manufactures site states a damascus type look it is not damascus. Same with the hamon, a difference in the tempure line alone does not make a hamon. From my understanding of damascus is layers of steel alone does not produce damascus, if it did then every knive made from monosteel that was folded would be called 'damascus'

Originally Posted by fitzo

Regardless, it raises the additional question of what constitutes "real damascus", which I feel is impossible to answer since it has become a colloquial term and no longer "that steel which was traded along the Silk Route."

this does bring up many interesting questions. Suprisingly enough there's a huge amount of people out there who does not know how to close a lockblade let alone sharpen or even termonology. I was at a sharpening thing yesterday and I brought it up that I seriously question if that could be called 'damascus' and they told me it was layered so it was damascus and that's what its sold as. I simply said no that's not damascus but this is and showed them the stuff I have. What I think we have here is incorrectly labeled advertisments leading to wrong information. Also you have the what is real damascus and what is not question. Bottom line is it seems there's a huge lack of terminology for this area.

Ed

[fitzo]

Originally Posted by BlackNet

......... Bottom line is it seems there's a huge lack of terminology for this area.

Ed

There's a whole lot of terminology; it's simply neither precise nor agreed upon. There will never be a concise definition of what constitutes "damascus steel" again. Look at the differing opinions just four people had on this thread.

Another example would be the continuing expansion of the definition of "Bowie knife". Yet another example would be how different the term "white bread" means to me versus the guy down the block. No one person gets to be the arbiter of the "correct" definition of a colloquial term, so opinions and meanings vary. A "gray area".

[sdcb27]

As Fitz said, "Damascus? as we call it is a pretty broad term and isn?t really steel at all, if one wants to be specific about the word it?s a place. Damascus steel which was not even made in Syria but was Wootz from India and farther eastern countries and sold in Syria.

I beleive the term Damascus sword was brought back from the crusaders and the crusaders were in awe of the steel compared to euro steel at the time, hence the myth of magical swords of damascus the Moors had. Like Fitz said its all a matter of taste, i tend to prefer "pattern welded" (welded being the key word) As such any welded steel is "damascus" to me. DAMASCUS Steel sounds fancy to a customer then pattern welded.

I say in a broad simple sense they are all "damascus" but specifically we use words for blades like Hada, San Mai when we shouldnt, unless its a japanese peice or we are speaking in Japanese. Yes its same technique more or less but the european multi billet steels, and jacketed swords are not japanese nor did that tradition likey come from india, japan or damascus syria.
So why do we still say damascus, becuase its a broad simple sense of the term, if we used specifics to a "T" then there is no such thing as Damascus steel as it was Wootz originally. To each his own and not to condem any.

Guile and wizardry doesn?t impress or fool me, however for a beer ill believe anything