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Knife Collecting From beginner to professional. Discuss the latest trends, get reviews, opinions and more ... If you're serious about collecting custom knives, start here!

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  #16  
Old 10-29-2005, 09:35 PM
Phil Ernest Phil Ernest is offline
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Comments regarding knifemaking.......

I happened upon this link last night by accident while exploring ways to access my website without entering the entire URL. I was a bit shocked to see the controversy and importance that some people seem to place on their own opinions. Yes.... I'm a fairly new knife maker. I've been making knives since about 1999 and full till since late 2002. I learned under Ralph Freer and much of my work reflects his influence I would imagine. I do not have a machinists background but I've been blessed to be fairly handy with my hands and learn quickly. I was an analyst/troubleshooter for the Postal Service and retired as soon as I could after 37 years. For the first time in my life I am doing something I really love to do. That's the whole reason I make knives. Some say my prices are too high. Maybe you aren't aware of the costs of guality materials. I'm usually told I sell too low. I would like to think that I earn at least some small profit for the time and effort I put into making my knives but I usually figure out what the materials cost and just add $20 to $50 for my labor. I don't even could things like electricity, belts, sandpaper, screws, etc. So if you think my prices are too high, make me an offer!! Basically I usually just like to make enough to cover my material so I can buy more and keep making knives. A price per inch was a suggestion I was given as a rule of thumb. It's rarely used. I will charge more for a knife that was really difficlut for me to make or I might just give it away just to get it out of my sight!!

I'm a humble person and have to admit I was quite offended by suggestions that the original thread was just an infomercial. I was not even aware that this conversation was taking place. I'm not hard to find and have an email link on my website. All you had to do was email me and confront me. I appreciate constructive criticism but admit I can be a little thin skinned at times. Some criticism does hurt but I try to learn from it. I know I can't please everyone but I try. I really do appreciate your comments, but if you have no idea of what goes into making a knife by hand your comments will be ignored. All of my knuves are made and designed by me by hand. I don't, however make my own Damascus steel at present. I start with a billet and go from there.

As far as the types and practicality of my knives....... I make all kinds. There are many types of knife people. Some appreciate them as art and aren't looking for something to strap on their belt and take out into the forest. I enjoy making the colorful, impractical knives because I am so often asked to and because they are more challenging. They are still useable if you don't care about them getting beat up looking. I also make strictly utilitarian knives and knives that try to fall somewhere in between. As far as my heat coloring the steel is concerned, I DO NOT take it to 600 degrees to color. I do it at 400 to 425 degrees. It acts an a final tempering draw. My knives usually fall between RC 56 to 60. I make knives from all types of steel including 440C, ATS-34, S30V, all types of carbon steel but I do love Damascus steel the best and usually do make them from some form of damascus steel. I've found it superior in many ways including it's ability to hold an edge. I purposely make my blades a little thick because they will hold up better and take more abuse and sharpening than a thin blade. I prefer the look of a shallow hollow grind to a deep hollow grind. Just my personal preference. I started making knives with pins of all types bgut found them to be too restrictive in what I wanted to do. I love to experiment and try new things. this often requires me to assemble and disassemble them several times before they are completed. Using pins to too restrictive and limits what I can do too much.

The main thing I have learned in knife making is that there is no right or wrong way to make a knife and there are not specific standards that determine whether it is a good knife or not. If it comes out they way you wanted it to, it's a good knife. Sometimes it's a good knife even if it doesn't come out as originally intended. What a person claims is right or wrong about a knifes construction is merely their own opinion or perception. I am in no way bragging, but the value and demand of my knives has increased considerably in a short amount of time and I have a love for my work and a desire to constantly improve and try new things. This, coupled with a stubbornness to make the best and not to give up will in fact make my knives a valuable collectible in future years.

I guess I've already said more than enough but felt that some comment from me was necessary. Thank you very much to those of you that like my work. I try to put a part of myself into every knife I make. To those of you that don't like my knives, I'm sorry I was not able to please you but everyone has their own likes and dislikes. I hope that maybe some day you will be able to look at my work and say, Hey... That's not so bad after all!!!

I probably won't be getting on here often, but thank you for the opportunity to express my own point of view.

Phil Ernest
Ernest Custom Knives
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  #17  
Old 10-30-2005, 08:21 AM
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hammerdownnow hammerdownnow is offline
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What an intro to what has been termed "THE friendliest place on the internet". Hard way to join the gang by getting a bloody nose before you even knew you were a member. heehee. Don't be mad at some of us crusty old farts. Look around, pull up a chair. Take what you like, leave a little if you care to. You seem like a good guy and so does JoJo. There are more than a few things I like about your knives . One thing is how you seem to have a handle on "hot" eye catchin features and materials that are popular at this time. Couple that with time saving semi production style techniques like no blasted time eating guards and drilling and tapping the bolsters and slabs. Not to say that is easy to do with out quite a bit of practice, but when it is got down to a science it can be a real time saver which translates into savings that can be passed on to the buyer. No doubt you have a good recipe for success going on there. Good luck. You seem like the forgiving type. Give us a little slack and like I said look around a bit, I think you might grow to like it. I don't think amaizing is too strong a word when you think about your body of work, dedication, marketing strategy and skill level was accomplished in just two short years. In fact, that may be putting it just a tad mildly. Your ability to remain civil and give a cool measured response speaks volumes about your character.

P.S. If you think about it, you cannot BUY a critic like what you got here, some of it by guys that really know their stuff. Take anything out of it that you think might help and discard the rest.


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Last edited by hammerdownnow; 10-30-2005 at 08:40 AM. Reason: add blab fix spelling
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  #18  
Old 10-30-2005, 09:34 AM
Dan Graves Dan Graves is offline
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When I opened this thread and first read it I found it interesting to hear so many points on knife collecting. First, Mr. Ernest, you will do yourself a great injustice by not checking in on this forum on a dailey basis. I started making knives 18 years ago and have attended seminars, ABS hammerins etc. and have found this place a wealth of knowledge and VERY friendly folks. Some people think that selling on e-bay is a bad thing, I dont. Its just another market. I too have sold on e-bay. As I have a love for bladesmithing whether or not my knives will be collecable or not is just not a major thing to me. The fit and finish, usability and overall desighn is whats important to me. If my blades become collectable, great, if not, it dosnt matter because I will chase the art of making the best I can. I have well known friends who are makers who tell me that I do need to consider wether or not it is collectable and the reason I feel they say this is to increase prices. They tell me I need to make just so many styles and specilize in these type of blades. Well to me the definition of a knifemaker is one who can make knives of all kinds. There are exceptions in my opinion, swords and folders. As far as people who critic your blades, I was at a ABS hammerin and a guy (no name mentioned) took a blade to a mastersmith and asked him to critic it. The Smith did and pointed out mistakes in the knife and the fellow got really mad. He learned nothing. I asked and the smith asked me "Do you really want me to?" I said "please". I learned a lot that day. Mr. ernest, if you have the love for bladesmithing all the above just dosnt matter. But Follow your heart and do stay on the forum and join in. Just to good of a place for people who love blades and how to make them.


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Last edited by Dan Graves; 10-30-2005 at 09:57 AM.
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  #19  
Old 10-30-2005, 10:06 AM
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Les Robertson Les Robertson is offline
 
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Hi Phil,

Many of the comments here (to include my own) are from collectors who have been around many years and have spent many thousands of dollars or in my case millions of dollars on custom knives.

There has been a trend for years now on the Internet of a collector touting a new makers work as exceptional and collectible. Yes, they do sound like infomercials (which is now the most accepted form of mass advertising on TV). However, the downside to an infomercial is that everyone understands it is biased and has an agenda. Whether true or not, if a collector who has limited years in custom knives, goes on and on about a makers work you have to question his motives.

Which is what I did. I wanted to know what he based his opinion on. I thought it was a straight forward question that remains unanswered.

You make knives the way you want to. WHich is what you should do. As Dan Graves writes and other makers will echo, make what you want and do it your way. This is excellent advise. Just as when I do seminars for collectors, my number one rule is to "buy what you like".

All of this is well and good until you as a maker want to become competitive. That is sell out at shows, win awards, get good "buzz" on the Internet and articles in magazines. The same holds true for those collectors who then want to "sell" the knives they bought.

If you make or buy knives that in turn you want to sell you have entered in to the competitve market. It is at this point a caveat has been added to the knife you make or the knives the collector is selling. That being, just because you liked it doesn't mean anyone else will. This is especially true for collectors.

With makers you have to identify your position in the market(s) you are going to compete in. As well more collectors are now considering a makers position in the aftermarket. Now the maker must consider your position in that market as well.

Love of the creative art is what drives most makers. However it is the ability to sell their work that sustains them.


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  #20  
Old 10-30-2005, 10:33 AM
Phil Ernest Phil Ernest is offline
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Great Forum........

Thank you guys....... I didn't mean to come across as angry about the comments made..... I just have a thing about society dictating what we are supposed to conceive as being correct and incorrect. I respect all knifemakers and can apreciate the work of Buster Warenski to that rustic old rusty bowie with the cracked handles. They all have their own form of beauty and represent a piece of the character of the maker. I've also been a collector for about 25 years and love all types of knives. I surely have a great deal to learn amd look forward to learning and experiencing as much I can in my lifetime. Certainly my fit and finish can use improvement and is an ongoing process as I continually try new methods and incorporate new ideas. I just love making knives and fel good that I can express myself through what I make. I'm not happy with everything I make....... (I have a lot of rejects laying around ). I didn't mean I wouldn't be getting on because I didn't respect your opinions...... I'm just so darn busy lately!!! I'm a little burned out on computers too....... I've worked with them since about 1970. They're not as fun when you have to work on them for a living!!! You're right though....... I should get on and learn as much as I can from all of you. Your opinions, comments, ideas and suggestions are valid and important and offer a great learning tool. One thing I really love about knife making is that there's always something new to try.

Time for me to get out to the shop and get to work!!!! Thanks again...........

Phil
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  #21  
Old 10-30-2005, 11:09 AM
Dan Graves Dan Graves is offline
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Mr. Robertson, would you say more on the subject "With makers you have to identify your position in the market(s) you are going to compete in. As well more collectors are now considering a makers position in the aftermarket. Now the maker must consider your position in that market as well"


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  #22  
Old 10-30-2005, 03:18 PM
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SharpByCoop SharpByCoop is offline
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Smile Thanks for your comments, Phil...

...and a welcome.

Most of us choose our words carefully, if there is an honest critique to be made. Most of us....

I also VERY much appreciate the time and wisdom Les Robertson has spent critiquing and educating us in this thread. I understand how you, at first, would be taken aback, but if you look closely and read again, there are nuggets of wisdom on what a good, successful, and sustaining knifemaker should know and incorporate.

I also stand behind everything I mentioned, still. The internet, and the forums in particular, are a HUGE sounding board for what works in the industry and why. It also gives folks a chance to offer what doesn't work for them. As Hammerdownnow commented: You can't BUY this sort of critique anywhere else. Be thankful for some honest insights.

I am pleased again that you have an exuberant client/collector (JoJo) and a short backlog. That's good for all of us, believe it or not. Being in demand is enviable. Maintaining that demand is a goal that cannot be overstressed. Once your work starts reselling in the aftermarket is part of the acid test.

Dan Graves is a VERY consistent and welcome presence on the internet forums and in the world of knifemaking. He gives back with insights all the time. As he pointed out, there is much value to be had in paying attention. Go back to the shop, yes, but after you are tired and need a break, come back in and contribute or listen. You will become much better in your long-term projections for your great livelihood. You may even pick up a few new clients.

Again, thanks for your time posting. I appreciate your hard work here and in the shop.

Coop


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  #23  
Old 10-30-2005, 07:53 PM
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Les Robertson Les Robertson is offline
 
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Hi Dan,

Example, a maker produces a hunter. So he is now in the "hunter" market.

Of course each market will have sub-sets. These are ususally based on price, materials, demand in the primary and after market, value for the money, etc.

First, the maker has to determine how many makers produce a hunter similar to his, with the same materials and in the same price range.

Then the maker needs to see where they fit in that market.

Once they identify where they are at in a particular market is when they can really influence their market.

It is the lack of position knowlege that makes pricing a knife so difficult for so many makers.

If you find yourself in the middle of the pack and most makers are charging $190 for that hunter. Then you either have to charge less or offer more to become a perceived value. That is one of the main things, if not the main thing I look for when I start working with a maker.

A lot of collectors went through some tough times after 9/11. Jobs were lost and collections were sold. It was at this time that many of the collectors went to school....in the aftermarket. They found out that many of their knives did not bring what they had hoped. This taught many a valuable but costly lesson. When things turned around and they started buying again, many started paying attention to what is happening with a makers work in the aftermarket. While not completely basing their purchases on this one factor, it did carry more weight than it did in the past.

Makers today have to know their position in the market, offer value for the money. As well they have to continously strive to improve their position in the primary and secondary markets. This is where the business end of it comes into play. Quite frankly most makers don't put forth the business effort necessary to become a successful knife maker.

Take me for instance, long ago I made the decision to be a custom knife dealer. Not like most that you see today that call themselves custom knife dealers and sell factory knives as well. It is easier to offer factory knives as well as more people have $100 than have $500 to spend on a knife. However, I made the committment to custom knives. As such I had to analyze my market(s), find out where I was and what I needed to do to improve my position. With all the success I have had I still review my business plan every 6 months and work on an updated 5 year plan annually.

I analyze trends in markets, materials, makers, shows, etc. I develop contingency plans for my analysis. This allows me to be proactive instead of reactive. Being a leader in a market will always help you improve your position.

Hope this helps.


Mr. Coop,

Thank you for the kind words. There will be a little something extra in the pay envelope this week.


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  #24  
Old 10-30-2005, 09:07 PM
Dan Graves Dan Graves is offline
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Thank you for the words of wisdom. I find that I am being pushed in a direction of the style of blades I make. The bar has been raised so much from when I started making knives (17 yrs ago). I heard Jerry Fisk once say "Your not going to get rich being a knifemaker". While that may be true, I am richer than most in that I do what I truly love.


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  #25  
Old 10-31-2005, 11:10 AM
Phil Ernest Phil Ernest is offline
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Les......

I respect you as an individual and your opinion. I am, however, a straight-forward and honest individual who says it as I see it. I think it's very sad that you judge success on a monitary level. I don't feel it depicts the true nature of knife making and collecting. Maybe the rest of the members of this forum find your disertation on economics and marketing of value but it's very old information to me due to the atmosphere I grew up in. My father was a professor of business administration and marketing. He was affiliated with UC Berkeley and LACC. He wrote many textbooks, some of which are still in use today. (ie, Elements of Marketing, Ernest & DaVall, McGraw Hill). I'm very fortunate to have learned that there's a lot more to life than money. I don't make knives for a living as I have a modest annuity and several investments. I'm truely blessed that I can appreciate them from an aesthetic point of view. You've devalued and critisized my work but I can't help but wonder how many of my knives you've actually held in your hand. It's a shame that some people feel that the first thing they must do when they get a new knife is put it under a microscope and search for it's flaws rather than appreciate it's good points. JoJo can at least say he has held one and seen it first-hand. Hopefully it was a good one. He doesn't owe anyone a detailed explanation of why he thinks it's amazing. Maybe he just likes it!!!! I'm just a human being. I have my good days and bad. Some of my knives are truely great and some are admittedly not so hot. Everyone is hand made.... No CNC, so they are all different to some degree. I wish they could all be perfect but they aren't and never will be. I'm very certain that one of your first comments would be that they are too heavy. A matter pf personal preference. I like a big, heavy, beefy knife that you can really feel in your hand. Something rock solid. The "trend" is for light weight tapered tangs. To me, they feel like a plastic picnic knife with a molded styrofoam handle. But then I make what I like, not what everyone else likes.

As far as competitiveness is concerned, I'm not in competition with anyone, despite the fact that I sell my knives. My knives are my knives. If you want a PJ Ernest knife, then buy one. If you want a Kalfayan, then buy it!!! I could care less. Every knife maker has their own style and as you've said, buy what you like. The only reason I sell my knives is that I can't see just letting them lay around my house taking up space.

I may be too much of an idealist, but it's my hope that one day I'll be recognized as a good knifemaker on my own merit without fretting over their monitary value. That's what knife making and collecting is all about for me and fortunately a lot of other people.

JoJo..... thank you for your more than kind comments and enthusiasm. If you should ever wish to have another one of my knives dspite it's lack of value, it's yours at cost. (Smile)

Phil Ernest
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  #26  
Old 10-31-2005, 11:36 AM
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TikTock TikTock is offline
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Good discussion.

Id be very interested to find our how you achieve the dark blues and borderline purples in your blades at around 400 degrees. I temper at above that and never get close to those colors. Do you use salts? I thought the color was a 1 to one ratio on the heat and from what I can find, dark blues come out as follows:

500 brown yellow
510 spotted brown
520 brown purple
530 light purple
540 full purple
550 dark purple
560 full blue
570 dark blue
640 light blue
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  #27  
Old 10-31-2005, 11:41 AM
fitzo fitzo is offline
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Well said, Phil. It's good to remind people occasionally that not everyone makes and/or sells knives with a profit/return-on-investment balance-sheet approach, and that things like secondary markets don't mean squat to many of us. Matter of fact, for many of us the passion of the craft gets lost when it gets too much like a business.

Different strokes for different folks................

Last edited by fitzo; 10-31-2005 at 11:54 AM.
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  #28  
Old 10-31-2005, 01:07 PM
Phil Ernest Phil Ernest is offline
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TikTock..... Different carbon steels turn different colors at the same temperature. The size/thickness of the steel as well as the length of the soak also influence it's ability to color. Chris Marks' wife has told me that they can color his mosaic bolsters at as low as 300 degrees. I haven't tried it though.
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  #29  
Old 10-31-2005, 01:12 PM
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hammerdownnow hammerdownnow is offline
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I have a lot of people tattooing out of their houses around me for a fraction of what I have to charge to keep my shop doors open. They come to me to ask for advice and tips on how to tattoo. Now , what should I do? Share with them, teach them what I know and let them drive the prices down so low that I can no longer afford to have an above board business? I just cannot bring myself to cut my own throat like that.

When I first came to this forum, I wondered what the advantage was for makers who depend on sales for their livelyhood to share their knowlege so freely. Of course to keep alive and promote the art is a good reason, but I have wondered if cultivating so many hobbists especially prolific ones would somehow drive the market price down. I know more makers have dropped out every year than have stayed with it in past years, (pre internet),, but was that do to the lack available knowlege and support along with the difficulty of meeting and communicating with those to teach them. Will the internet and the forums have an affect on those numbers now?

I have been asked if I would sell a knife that I have made before, but I have declined, offering instead to trade for one that they have made or for materials. Something keeps me from selling as a hobby guy when so many full timers have shared with me so freely. If I ever felt the need to turn pro, or suppliment my income with knifemaking, I think I would keep my prices up so as not to disrespect my mentors nor devalue the craft.

Phil does not need any advice from me, but if I were him I would slow down on the "Not so hot" ones and concentrate on a few "Truly great" ones and sell them with prices up in the art knife catagory.


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  #30  
Old 10-31-2005, 01:51 PM
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Can you tell me what blade steels you are using? Ive never had a blade steel hot blue to deep blue at anywhere close to 300 degrees. Im not trying to accuse you of anything, I am just curious for my own work. I would think if I had come across a sub-tempering-temperature-hot-bluing blade steel, id have remembered it!
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