What makes and art knife?

[Jim Small]

Ray......


Yes! and Thank You.

Jim

[lgrif]

I remember an art class that required the students to occasionally get up in front of the class and explain their thought process as it related to design. One student in particular was a mediocre artist but my oh my...........could the lad convince the others of why his design was so outstanding....... which it usually wasn't. Perhaps Jim's instructor was suggesting that if one has to explain and convince others why it's art then maybe it isn't. Certainly to have questions about how it became art is different than to question whether it is art. In the end we will probably all agree that it is in the eye of the beholder and the more one becomes experienced with artsy things perhaps the more discriminating we become and our definition narrows. I wonder whether my/our idea of "art" will be differnet in 5 years and how. Lee Griffiths

[David Broadwell]

Last night I walked out of my office and my daughter screamed "Daddy, what happened to your head!?!" I had read Ray's comments on my cutlass and my head had swollen to grotesque proportions. Thanks, Ray, for scaring Katie out of a year's growth!

Ray mentioned this particular thread and suggested I throw in my 2 cents worth. The comments from all of you are very good. There are some points I would make:
1. The term "art", like the term "hand made", is grossly overused in today's society in general.
2. Most people in today's society cannot tell the difference between art and craft. It's getting worse too. In too many schools these days the arts are not taught because the powers that be want more of a focus on acedimic subjects.
3.What most people in the knife universe call "art knives" are no more a piece of art than my Honda Accord. Mostly, they are very well crafted tools using fairly simple designs that are meant to add to the workability of that tool. They may be dressed up, but that does not make them art.
4. Instead of making a knife that is really art, makers create those fine tools and send them to you guys for engraving, scrimshaw, etc. to turn them into "art". They still are not art, but in reality a canvas for artists such as yourselves to work on. Nothing wrong with that (especially if you are getting paid for your embellishment!), but the knife is not truly a piece of art.
5. Materials don't matter, within reason. The "art knife" Ray was referring to was in reality a basic utility liner locking folder. Very ordinary and "cookie cutter" in its design; there's bazillions like it. I believe the dealer was calling it "art" to help sell it, but the damascus steel and very lame engraving did nothing to make this art. It was just a poor attempt to dress up a utility pocket knife. I've seen knives made from stainless steel and a basic handle material that were art, and others made from damascus and fossil walrus ivory that were not.

I'd like to elaborate on point #1. We live in a time in which technology has made manufacturing much more precise and inexpensive. You can get a servicable knife today for $20, but 100 years ago its price in relative dollars would be much higher. That's certainly good for the consumer. However, people still like to have things, at least their luxury items, made by "REAL" people, not CNC machines. That, I believe, is one of the reasons hand made knives have been popular. As some of you may know, I make some high end fountain pens along with my knives. In the pen manufacturing world the term "hand made" is the most overused descriptive term. It seems like every manufacturer wants to call their pens hand made, when in fact they are made by machine operators on CNC lathes, and the only artist involved is really the draftsman who (using a computer and CAD/CAM software) puts the design on paper. One rep for a Japanese pen manufacturer has told me that a feature on one of their pens that is called hand made is really only loaded into the CNC lathe by hand. Knife manufacturers seem to be a little more honest in that regard! My point is that I believe that people, whether manufacturers, sales people, or the buyers, use the terms "art" and "hand made" to make themselves feel good, but like many other words in the English language these days they aren't being used properly and are even being intentionally changed in their real meaning. Personally, I think using the terms properly is best. After all, there certainly isn't anything wrong with a very well crafted Ray Cover Sr. drop point hunter with Ray Cover Jr. engraving on the bolsters. It is a good example of fine craftsmanship at its best that has been embellished by an artist. More of a mouthful to say than "art knife", but more accurate.

Back to work.

David

[Jerry Oksman]

David,
I agree with all the points you made especially #1. I think your last line is very telling as well. It has become a sociatal want that everything is compressed into a single small sound byte and so "art knife" is used and abused to explain something more complex. The Hot Rod Car world is similar in description to the pen world. A custom car is not a car made from scratch, it's a modified "customized" vehicle, something that you can't get from the factory. Even that line is blurring as you can get "rodded" vehicles from the factory now too. Having built cars from scratch I know of what I speak. (ok they where race cars so I never built a passenger car from scratch).

Ray,
Thanks for starting this, too many of the threads just come down to "what steel did you use", not that there's anything wrong with that. But sometimes you got to think about bigger issues if for no other reason than to stretch your mind.

As a side note, language always changes so definitions will change unless someone actively tries to prevent it, only "dead" languages don't change. English (and here the caveat is American English) is more guilty of change than most languages. One reason is that English does not express a lot of things well, where other languages have specific words for very specific things (like the Inuit tongue having some 100 or so words for snow, I don't know the exact number) English only has the one, so we borrow, borrow, borrow, from every and all languages.

[Ray Cover Jr]

Jerry, you are very welcome. I also want to thank all those who are participating.

In the end we all need to be consious about the decisions we make in all aspects of our work. When I was in college we always had manditory student art shows. Not everyone's work got in but we always had to apply. We were required to give an "artist's statement" about the work we submitted. At the time it was torture and I hated it. Mostly because we were supposed to justify what we did when in reality the reason was "It was an assignment". But of course, we could not put that on the form.

Now, after a bit of life has gone by, I understand why our instructors and professors required us to come up with those dredded "artist's statements". They wanted us to think about our work at a higher level than, "This is what I was told to make so I made it".

Because of that I try to put the same philosphy behind my engraving. I find that when I get in a rut or start burning out its because I was just engraving what I was told to engrave rather than putting intellectual and artistic effort into the work.

Ray

[Don Cowles]

Ray, I think you just nicely summed up what (from my perspective, at least) art is. It is a tangible (visual, audible, tactile, etc.) manifestation of the artist's inner vision. Without that vision, our work is rote production rather than art.

...of course, there is art that is well executed, and art that is poorly executed - and that's where the element of craft comes in.

Just my take on it.

[hammerdownnow]

Quote...of course, there is art that is well executed, and art that is poorly executed - and that's where the element of craft comes in. Well said Don.

If we fall into the trap of being so enamored of our own work we start discounting the efforts of others, we could then fall into catagory of primadonna.

Art is art. Solely dictated by the intention of the person who creates it.

[Ray Cover Jr]

Nobody is putting anyone else's efforts or work down here. None of us are showing a lack of respect for other folk's work or efforts.

Defining the difference between a Karate Champion and a Boxing Champion does not put one down nor does it give the other undue praise (especially if they are both good in the ring).

The intent of the whole discusson is what justifies a knife being an "art Knife". That doesn't necessitate that a knife that is not an art knife is devalued.

Ray

[David Broadwell]

Hammer, you stated "Art is art. Solely dictated by the intention of the person who creates it." Does that mean placing a Crucifix in a Mason jar and filling it with urine is art? The person who made this intended it to be art. He said so, and it was placed on exhibit as art.

Is a basic cookie cutter utility knife fitted out with damascus art? No, it is and will always be a basic cookie cutter utility knife, just dressed more expensively. A Yugo will always be a Yugo, even with a Boyd Coddington paint job. Boyd's excellent paint job does not make that car a piece of art, just one that looks prettier than most.

This is not discounting the efforts of others. There is nothing wrong with the knife I described above (assuming that it functions properly and is well crafted) or the Ray Cover Sr. drop point mentioned in an earlier post, and there is nothing wrong with being a craftsman. As a matter of fact, Mr. Cover would never call himself an artist. He know he's a craftsman, and is properly proud of that title. However, calling it art is not appropriate or fair to those who really are artists any more that labelling a craftsman something he or she is not.

If this makes me a prima donna, so be it. I'll just add it to the end of my name like English royalty does.

David Broadwell, RWGN, Life Member VRWC, NCWM, PD

[hammerdownnow]

I am not trying to be combative, just discussing. Please excuse my poor writing skills.

Which is art and which is craft between karate and boxing? (insert smiley)

We often discribe a certain knife as having "the look". The "look" can be defined as initiating an emotional response, pleasant or unpleasant. Flow, form and feel have as much, or more to do with initiating that response as bells and whistles. As a, type before I think kind of guy, I have to revise and say, some artists seem to have a special gift. an ability of hand/ eye to put on canvas what is most close to there minds eye. The most beloved of those artists are the ones that are humble of their talent and helpful to those who aspire.
I am in a field that some consider art, while others consider it mutilation. As a tattooist/ tattoo artist, doing 75% cookie cutter patterns and 25% original design the line is understandably blurred. After 20 years of thought on what to consider what is, as one artist in a discussion after a few beers, termed "counterfiting", and what is art, is behond my grasp. If my typing appears harsh it is pure language butchery, and not meant to be mean spirited. I have enjoyed the thread and everyones thoughts.

[hammerdownnow]

Giving a monkey a paint brush and pointing him at a canvas has been termed in some peoples eyes to be art. Not in my opinion, non the less, in the broadest sense of the term, "Human creativity" then , yes it is art. The simplest edc utility could be considered art if it has a certain artistic flow. I choose to paint my definition with broad strokes. (groan) Fecal art is not my cup of tea either, but to each his own. Flower arranging to flower hibridnization (word?) is art. When we gravitate to a medium that trips our trigger other mediums seem not as interesting. Where as you may be into the art neuvo scrollwork, which is beautiful, it is possble stir ones soul with a well placed hammer mark.

[Jerry Oksman]

Hammer,

I think we get that you are not intending this to be mean. Text unfortunetly does not express feeling (and sometimes meaning) very well.

I did like your statement that Art is Art. Art is very self defining. You know it when you see it. There is however a school of thought that says art has to create an emotion, happy, sad, angry whatever as long as you "feel" something. This has been stretched to the point that some people will produce art just to disgust you. They've gotten an emotion from you so they feel justified in their "art". I can't gainsay there view as it is a reaction to all those people who if it isn't a portrait or landscape painting it isn't art and believe me there is a big group of those people. Of course I think that in many cases it just goes too far or is being disgusting for it's own sake.

Take photography, for some it's family photo's for others a job for yet others art. It took a very long time before photography was considered as being an art form. You had Ansel Adams all those years ago and it still took to maybe 20-30 years ago before it was taken seriously. A knife can be a utilitarian item or it can be art, so the photo metaphor is apt.

I think we are back to making definitions. Someone has to decide what is art. I go to the Metropolitan Museum and there is this 20' X 20' giant blue rhombus hanging on the wall, just a big blue rhombus, it's considered art, yet personally I dont' think it's art. Yet it's hanging in the Met, this is the biggie to get diplayed here you have to be the real deal. So there has got to be a bunch of people who do consider it art. On the other hand when I see some of Polloks work, even though it's just a mess it has something intrinsic within it that makes it art to me.

So the question isn't "is this art?" The question should actually be "who decides this is art?"

[fisk]

I have enjoyed reading this. Growing up where I did, I was never exposed to art of any form other than what nature provided.
As getting to be an old guy, I now go to some gallerys and exhibits both public ones and private collections of various art forms. I am amazed sometimes what people has purchased for art in some of the private collections and the price they gave for it. However it is their money and I dont know much about art yet, but I am learning.
I took a drawing class two years ago and was amazed and that is my first exposure to art. To me a art knife is defined as one made by someone else while mine is so so craftsmanship. Dooded up does not mean art necessarly to me, I have seen what I consider art knives to be both dooded up and plain. Hard to explain.
I like some abstract art but good abstract is hard to do I think.
I am just rambling mostly wanted you guys to know I am enjoying this and even learning a bit.

[Ray Cover Jr]

I do really want to thank all of you for participating in this thread. It is causing me to really ponder the issue.

I will read a post and walk away from the computer thinking about it.

The concept of Artist's intent has been brought up and odd things hanging in museums has been brought up. That brought to mind an art history class when we were studying the Dada movement. This movement happened about the time that abstraction and non- representational art was becoming popular. This was also about the time that art critics and scholars started becoming interested in the artist psyche. It sort of became an accepted fact that you had to be an anti social mental case to be a good artsit.
(OK so some of us do fit the stereo type )

A bunch of artist got together to see if they could pull the wool over the eyes of these critics and scholars. Their "intent" was not to produce art but to fool the critics into believing the most outragious stuff they could think up was art. They started doing things like taking a urinal and painting a smiley face on it, taking a wooden stool and screwing a bicycle tire on it, etc. They made up BS to go with it, entered it in art shows and pulled it off.

The real kicker is when the gig was up and the truth came out. the stuff remained in the museums as art. The wild thing is that my art history book related this info and still calls it art. Even though the people who made it did not intend it to be, the Dada movement is still considered an "art movement".

This is a very simplified readers digest version of the story but it does bring up a point about artist intent.

Ray

[David Broadwell]

Hammer,

I wasn't trying to be confrontational either, just making a point.

I've seen tattoos that were art, and others that were mutilation, so I know what you mean! Many of us makers who try to make art knives still have to make non-art knives, just as you have to do a lot of cookie cutter tattoos, but when we get to make art it's great. I imagine it really blows your hair back when someone comes into your studio with a seriously sized budget and tells you they want a such and such theme, so get creative. That's when the artist really comes out.

People have mentioned emotion. I don't know that it's a requirement that art cause an emotional response from a viewer, but it usually does happen. A good artist will, in my opinion, try to give the viewer a good emotion. I'm not wild about political art, something that tries to make some sort of political statement. I have a good friend who is a local bronze sculptor. Jack is a cowboy artist, and when you look at his bronzes you can feel what's actually going on in the sculpture. I try to leave the viewers of my art knives with a positive feeling, not a negative one. As Jerry said though, some art tries to disgust you. That Crusifix in the jar of urine is a prime example. No one walked away from seeing it with the warm fuzzies!

Good point, Jerry, about photography. Many of us have thought for some time that knives could be a true artform, but the mainstream art community did not want to recognize it as such. Twenty years our local art league was putting on a show for local artists. I gave them a call, but was turned away. I was told that knives were just craft and never art; only flat work and sculpture were "REAL" art. Well, we've all showed them! Now these people are realizing that knives can be art, and don't always mind having them in with the paintings and statues.

Jerry Fisk, I've seen a couple of your knives, and I would say that they are fairly well crafted. Don't let them say otherwise.

I think the museums had to keep calling the Dada junkyard stuff art to save face. They had already signed on to it and couldn't back off.

David