re: professional courtesy

[Osprey Guy]

Coop-

That link idea was proposed early on in this thread...

How are you gonna feel the next time you walk in a museum and the "link" there is the "special" hall where visitors can go to view "possibly offensive" nude subject matter.
How about that sign?..."If you aren't offended by nudity in art, feel free to go down this special hall we've created just for you."

At what point do we stop trying not to offend the other guy? BTW-Who's going to write the rules as to what artwork posted here must be linked?

Who said that the creed of the CKDF is to please all people and make absolutely sure nobody is offended in the slightest while visiting here? Well guess what, I'm offended as hell at the suggestion that I have to click on a "special" link just so that I might view art that contains any sort of nude subject matter!

And if there are those who don't think this is PC, the entire concept of "politically correct" is to make sure that nobody is offended..."regardless." If you don't think this is exactly how we loose our rights, think again. "What's the big deal...no need to get all worked up...I mean, we don't want to offend anybody. So what if that knife show is afraid they might loose visitors so they now ban any and all nude art...They can always come to my website and view the knife...Oh but wait, it's not allowed there now either... unless I have that special, government issued filter."


The CKDF has nearly 3500 members and who knows how many visitors from all over the world. And because a very few might possibly be offended while visiting an "art" forum, we should all have to now bend over.

You want to call this a crusade...fine. At what point exactly would you draw the line in the sand and say "no!"?


Dennis Greenbaum

Yeah Baby!

[Osprey Guy]

How about this one:


"THANK YOU FOR VISITING WITH US AT THE 2004 BLADE SHOW.

IN AN EFFORT TO MAKE SURE WE DON'T OFFEND OR DISTURB VISITORS AS THEY WALK UP AND DOWN THE AISLES, ALL KNIVES CONTAINING ANY FORM OF NUDE ARTWORK OR EMBELLISHMENT WILL NOW BE INDICATED BY PLACE CARDS ON THE KNIFEMAKER'S TABLE. IF YOU DO NOT FEEL YOU WOULD BE OFFENDED, THOSE KNIFEMAKERS WILL GIVE A PRIVATE VIEWING TO ANYONE INTERESTED."


Dennis Greenbaum

Yeah Baby!

[cwp]

Dennis,

I don't want this to sound wrong, because for the most part I agree with you, but as Jim Drouillard (Drac) said above, accessing the CKDF from work could lead to problems. I would love to see something easy in the subject so those posts can be saved for home. I sculpt and draw some, and love the human form, but my company has a fairly strict policy that I try not to cross.

Some may ask why I don't just save this forum for when I get home. The short answer is I sometimes during peak periods end up working for up to 20hrs in a day for a number of days straight. These forums can provide mental relief during those high stress periods.

I also don't think that what is needed is a link to another website. A single word in the subject line would allow anyone who wants to filter for viewing, but wouldn't require jumping to other websites for those who would like to view and possibly print a thread for future inspiration (as your folder with the backspine is Dennis).

I would love to see the world view shift to a point where nude art is not a problem, but most companies are going the other direction, and people don't want to risk their jobs for their hobby, no matter how much they love that hobby.

just my 2 cents.

--Carl

[Lloyd Hale]

There I went writin, without thinkin-- Lord give me the wisdom to keep my mouth shut...!!

[cwp]

Lloyd,

I think your last post was a response to mine, so I will try and answer your questions.

First, I do not want to sacrifice either common sense or freedom and wouldn't consider myself to be selfish. I was trying to say that a single word in the subject would allow for people to veiw this forum at work and feel comfortable doing so, knowing they could make choices that would keep them from trouble. This is my opinion only, and was presented as such.

As for what kind of place we work at. Typically, these types of rules are implemented throughout corporate america. Due to the number of sexual harassment lawsuits that have been filed for images in the workplace, most corporations have put in place rules that any images of nudes can not be viewed at work, with the penalty being termination (immediate).

Now, up till this point I have very easily been able to read these forums at work by reading the subject lines and skipping until later those that indecated artwork on the knife. Both here and in other forums. I will then make a note to myself to read the threads at home later. I have missed some threads for a couple of weeks before, but that really is my problem, not the boards.

What I really wanted to do in my previous post was no more than let another members opinion be heard. I do not believe that we should ever sacrifice our freedoms. I joined the Marine Corps when I was 17 because of the belief in the freedoms we have in this country. I personally really enjoy your work and love to see it, and hypotheticly if I saw something that I thought was vulgar and tasteless (haven't seen anything here) I would still defend your right to post it and display it. I have a mind and can use it, I don't need anyone trying to protect me from images and thoughts, just asking for the data to decide the appropiate local for me to enjoy peoples work.

Reading over this I relize I just went onto somewhat of a rant. I am going to leave it stand, because the gradual eroding of our freedoms in the current climate is one of my hot buttons.

--Carl

BTW--Lloyd, if you have pictures, and are allowed to post them (client issues) I would love to see the execution of your penis knife.

[Tim Adlam]

Hey Lloyd,

Re: outburst.
That's cool, I got the jist of it before the edit.
You're right, this is a forum.

...Not a museum.

Several issues going on at the same time.
Let me clarify a few things.

That link idea was proposed early on in this thread...

No Dennis...you started this thread ending with the comment...

I suspect this might be destined for another "mega thread"...Oh well, it was starting to get a little too quiet around here anyway.

But this is the part that really got my attention...

Well guess what, I'm offended as hell at the suggestion that I have to click on a "special" link just so that I might view art that contains any sort of nude subject matter!

I put a lot of thought and effort into working this out with the other guys, but I never even thought
that someone might develop carpel tunnel syndrome as a result of our decison.

Sorry if I caused you or anyone else this distress.

But you see, I'm a bit distressed too, or maybe just call it disappointment.

As one of two moderator/participants on this forum I try to see things from all sides.
Not easy at times as you well know.
You kicked the ball into my court and
continue to flame the fires...why?
What are you trying to gain here?

I expected better from a fellow "Moderator".

Tim

[Jeremy Krammes]

I was going to keep my nose out of this one, but I can't. I am completely aginst censorship, and I HATE anythin PC. We all seem to be in agreement on these subjects. That being said, there is NOTHING wrong with a "tag", or link for people to use so someone can CHOOSE weather or not to view something. Choice being the KEY word. The horse is dead, stop beating it!!!

Jeremy

[Lloyd Hale]

Jeremy... You're right...

[Osprey Guy]

Tim-

I know that as always, in your heart you're honestly trying to do the right thing....but the subject of PC is by far my hottest button.

I understand that I am flaming this fire. Unfortunately I am seeing red over this issue. What I am trying to say here is pretty simple...

...I want to make it clear to everyone that this situation, as in all PC-related matters, is being forced by complaints from what probably amounts to no more than 1% of the CKDF population!

In these forums, the Internet in general, museums, libraries, knife shows, whatever,...the point is, it always starts off as a "small" thing, and always with the best of intentions...the wish not to offend. A tag, a link, a warning sign...The problem is, once you've set this precedent, you've also set the bar. Once this rule is put into place, there's no turning back. And that's how it starts.

Is it really so hard to imagine it going downhill from here? What about that carved nude I referenced over in the "Display Case"? How will that now have to be handled in the future? One person lodges a complaint and we'll have to start the link thing over there as well (and BTW, you know as well as I that people are far less inclined to view our work by clicking on a link than they are when an actual photo is posted).

Regarding the workplace...I've been thinking about my original response to Drac. On the surface it does sound like a no-brainer. But how would that same employee handle an uptight boss who happened to spot a nude painting showing up on the monitor while that employee was viewing samples of the latest exhibit at the Louvre? If you thought it could be that much of an issue, couldn't you approach that boss and mention that on rare occasions artwork might come up which contains nude subject matter? If he tells you that he will in fact object, than save your viewing for home. As Lloyd points out, once again we're back to my original point in this response...we're talking about setting this in motion because of a very few people.


I know a lot of you guys think I'm making a mountain out of a molehill. Seems like most people just don't want to be bothered nowadays... "Can't we all just get along?" Well, I belive it's this complacency that has enabled the eventual loss of so many of our rights. If I develop a case of carpal tunnel because of my desire to engage in a spirited discussion of our rights...then so be it.


Dennis Greenbaum

Yeah Baby!

[Lloyd Hale]

Dennis ...I'll go to the wall with you ... Lead on...!!!

[Osprey Guy]

For those who think a "simple" tag or link is no big deal...


Tim Herman has begun work on several knives which are to include his wonderful nude engravings. For discussion's sake, let's say he was to win "Best Art Knife" at the next Blade Show. Here's how I imagine he might post photos of that knife...


Subject:

The Blade Show:"Best Art Knife", by Tim Herman

In the thread:

I'm pleased to say that one of my recent knives was judged "Best Art Knife" at the Blade Show.

Please click on the folowing link to view photos of that knife.
WARNING!
These photos show a knife which incorporates engraved nude images.
Do not click if you may be offended.

Thanks,
Tim Herman


Maybe it's just me, but I feel there is so much about this that is just plain wrong. So much emphasis is now being placed on the nudity rather than the art.


Why stop there? Why not:
WARNING! The following photos show a knife which incorporates scenes of a hunter shooting a poor, defenseless animal. Do not click if you belong to PETA.

You get the idea...


Dennis Greenbaum

Yeah Baby!

[Tom Ashworth]

I feel if I don't voice my support for Gravertom I will be a coward. No human has the right to say what is right or wrong - but God does. And I believe he did so in his Word, the Bible. The verses Tom quoted were appropriate for this discussion and I stand with him.
Tom Ashworth

[Bob Warner]

I could care less if these ART pieces are posted. I don't need a warning, I am a big (really too big) boy.

I understand that being politically correct irritates some people. I also know that nudity, no matter how it is presented can offend some people. Just because I am thick skinned does not mean the rest of the workd is, or should be required to be.

Fortunately we all have brains and we use them to serve ourselves and others. We have the right to choose what we like, what we don't, what we want to see and what we don't.

Unfortunately fighting for the RIGHT to show something here also fights for the right to show other things here. Maybe things YOU don't want to see. What if there were people scrimming rape scenes on knives or in progress sex acts, cross burnings or even swastikas with pro KKK statements. I am sure there is a topic that someone could put on a knife that would cross the line from art to offensive material in all of us.

Are we willing to defend something to the point where we loose friends or customers over it. As a businessman are you willing to say "To hell with what my customers like, I want it my way." Not too many people can survive in business if they don't take their customers and potential customers feelings in mind.

There is only one business you can get into that your customers will buy your product no matter how bad you treat them and that is toilet paper. If you do anything other than make toilet paper, you need to be concerned with what people think about you.

I personally would rather put a subject line that says "knife with nude scrimshaw" than one that does not inform and a potential customer gets offended by seeing something THEY think is offensive.

Some people think that knifemaking or the making of WEAPONS is offensive. We know that and we CHOOSE to come here to share our craft with people that are in agreement that knives are a good thing. Can't we just make a sub-form under fine embellishment or use descriptive subject lines to let people know what they are about to view so they can choose to open the file or not?

I do not see this as being forced into politically correct behavior but instead just simple respect for others.

[Lloyd Hale]

The Bible was written by man to control man and has no place in a knife forum... Keep it in the church where they believe the Earth is 7000 years old....

[Osprey Guy]

"Unfortunately fighting for the RIGHT to show something here also fights for the right to show other things here."


Bob-

That is exactly right!
Luckily, I can't recall the last time I saw a knife depicting those sort of brutal acts against others...

As for the swastikas...I'm Jewish and may find it personally abhorrent, but guess what, I would fight for the rights of that guy to make and post a photo of his knife with a swastika.


"Are we willing to defend something to the point where we loose friends or customers over it?"

Short answer...YES!


Dennis Greenbaum

Yeah Baby!