Knifemaking Definitions Project

[Ray Rogers]

I have updated the Poll thread with the two current definitions we have been discussing. I have written the PRO argument for my definition and the CON argument for Andy's.

Andy,

You can write a PRO argument for your definition if you wish, and the CON argument for mine. There is a 50 word limit to each. Remember that most people who (we hope) will vote have not followed all this thread, perhaps none of it. These arguments are your opportunity to state the advantages of your defintion and the dis-advantages of mine as you see them and sway the voters one way or the other ....

[Ray Rogers]

C'mon, doods! Growing old here ...

[NJStricker]

Originally Posted by Ray Rogers

C'mon, doods! Growing old here ...

Here you go, Ray:

CUSTOM--produced to the specifications of an individual or to personal order

PRO argument: Through both misuse and abuse, over time there has grown a considerable gap between the denotation (a dictionary definition of a word) of the word ?custom? as applied to knifemaking and its connotation (a user?s understanding of what the word represents in his/her use). The above definition (denotation) is written to narrow that gap to reflect modern understanding of ?custom? to reflect the idea that a person has specified that an object have certain features or qualities that could not otherwise be attained without making that specification or order. This definition does not limit the use of the word to those objects or features requested by a purchaser, patron, customer, or recipient, but acknowledges the creativity and craftsmanship that the maker?either on their own or at the request of another--invests in their product.

[Ray Rogers]

Nathan,

That is pretty much exactly the dictionary definition which, BTW, I originally offered for the term. But, I was argued down by the logic that 30 years of usage didn't support that definition where knife making was concerned. Consequently, my current definition no longer reads that way but Andy's essentially does. Although he carries it slightly further by including the knife maker's specifications I can't see a substantive difference in the definitions.

The PRO argument states that, in fact, the knife maker's specs also count but the purpose of the PRO argument is to explain why this definition is better than the others, not to expand on the definition itself. Whatever meaning you want in the definition must be in the definition. Finally, the PRO and the CON arguments are limited to 50 words. You may write a CON argument for my definitions if you wish. If Andy also writes one then the two of you will have to consolodate them as only one will be on the Poll.

So, for a third definition to be included on the Poll it will need to differ in some substantive way from the other two and the PRO argument for the definition should point out the benfits of this difference.

Considering that we are trying to define the same word, it wouldn't seem that there could be too many different interpretations of the meaning .

Finally, in recognition of the fact that this process could easily bog down to the point of no progress at all, I plan to open the Poll on Monday...

[NJStricker]

Thanks for the chance, Ray, but I don't have any more time to invest in the dictionary now. We're getting into our busy season at work, which means a lot less time for other things. When the poll is up I'll vote, or not, depending on what's there.

Nathan

[Ray Rogers]

Thank you for you input, Nathan. You helped to shape both of the current definitions....

[Andrew Garrett]

Ray,

My pro argument for my definition:

Allows for a broader understanding of a simple term without subdividing it and creating confusion. This definition DOES NOT include kit knives (defined as: factory knives with 'some assembly required') unless they are MODIFIED (defined as: altered in a way that impacts design).
My con argument for your definition may require more than 50 words as I am addressing not one, but three definitions.

Academic sources identify "custom', 'custom made', and 'customized' as synonymous terms. Hence, they are the SAME THING. Multiple definitions for synonymous terms is simply 'over-cooking the ham'.
A kit knife can be purchased with all parts ready to assemble. It cannot then be considered 'customized'.
Furthermore, the requirement for modification to be 'non-functional' excludeds such features as adding serrations, recurves, fingergrooves, and many other functional features to kit or factory knives. These heavily altered knives would be excluded from any of the author's definitions.

[Ray Rogers]

Andy,

I modified my CON statement slightly to address your statement about
kit knives by adding the word 'modified'. You may adjust your CON statement accordingly, or not, as you choose.

Because I agree that you have a valid point on kit knives where
assembly is the only thing that needs to be done, I have tweaked my
'customized' definition.

I also agree with you on the 'non-functional' comment and have altered
my definition to adjust for that.
With those modifications I think you should have no problem keeping
your CON statement to 50 words. I believe that my changes to my

definitions would allow your CON argument to be stated this way:

"Academic sources identify "custom', 'custom made', and 'customized'
as synonymous terms. Hence, they are the SAME THING. Multiple
definitions for synonymous terms is simply 'over-cooking the ham'."

There are still about 20 words left if my changes haven't met your
concerns as much as I hoped they would...

[Andrew Garrett]

Ray,

Your most recent changes have brought us to a point where I'm convinced that we can agree here.

I'm going to copy/paste here and offer another change or two. If you agree, the only vote would need to be whether the agreed upon definitions are acceptable.

Custom Knife - A knife made by a knife maker to his own specifications which distinguish it from readily available factory made or mass produced knives. Otherwise, any factory knife could be considered a custom knife since the knife-designer/factory-owner is also a knifemaker.
Custom Made Knife - A knife made to the specifications of someone other than the knife maker which distinguish it from readily available factory made or mass produced knives.

[Customized Knife - Any knife modified in such a way as to impact design and/or function. This would include
significant artwork, decorative filework, serrations, finger grooves, handle
material, etc not normally offered by the knife maker. This term may be applied to modified kit and factory knives. This term does not extend to minor efforts to 'personalize' a knife such as putting initials on it, etc.
I removed the caveat that 'customizing' has to be done at the request of someone other than the knifemaker. I would argue, that if you put a bread knife edge on your Gerber BMF or re-ground drop-point as a dagger, that you have rendered those knives firmly into the 'customized' arena without regard to whose idea it was.

If we can bridge this last gap and agree here, I think it'll show amazing progress from where we all started.

[Ray Rogers]

I'll have more comments later, I'm a bit rushed right now. But, I would just quickly throw out that the nature of these definitions is that they are for our industry as specifically opposed to the manufacturing industry. In fact, I have a definiton of 'knife maker' at the top of the original definitions list that basically says that when we say knife maker we mean us and not a manufacturer. So, I think that makes the references to factory made/manufactured knives redundant.

By the same token, I would offer that 'which distinguish it from readily available factory made or mass produced knives' is also redundant and superfluous by virtue of the fact that any knife we, as knife makers, make with our non-manufacturing methods is distinguished from the factory made knives by that very fact alone, even if it should happen to look exactly like a factory knife.

On the Customized definition I would worry about the 'significant' requirement. That opens a can of worms as to what is and is not significant. Filing 4 serrations on a blade would make it 'customized' originally but could be argued agaisnt with this definition as not being significant enough.

Food for thought...

[Ray Rogers]

Well, it appears Andy isn't going to be able to come back to this right away so I'm going to move on. We'll return to the 'custom' discussion when Andy returns.

Meanwhile, let's look at 'Sole Authorship'.. This term may be as close to a no-brainer as we will ever get, yet there is still some room for discussion. As a starting point I will set out this definition:

Sole Authorship - you and only you make all the parts of your knife and do all the operations involved in making it unless otherwise noted.

That is probably the strictest definition of Sole Authorship. But, we know that only in the rarest of cases do we actually make 'all the parts' of a knife. We generally do not make our own bolts or rivets, pivots, or screws and it isn't my intention that we should have to in order to qualify for Sole Authorship. But, where do we draw the line? What if the maker buys a guard or butt cap casting? Should we allow that or not? Since any knife maker is capable of making those I would think they are not allowed while screws, pivots, bolts and rivets would be as they are beyond most of us to make them and they gain nothing significant when we do make them.

For Sole Authorship to apply the heat treating, any special finishing or coating, engraving, scrimshaw or other embellishment would all have to be done by the maker.

Your opinions, comments?

[Drac]

I agree with what has been covered but what about damascus & sheaths? I would go with the opinion that the person would need to make his own for sole authorship.

Jim

[Ray Rogers]

Absolutely. If damascus is used it should be from the same maker. Ditto for the sheath.

It's no crime to make a knife with someone else's damascus - it is still a 'custom' knife and probably a few other things as well. It just isn't sole authorship in my opinion. I'm trying to think about 'sole authorship' as I believe a knife collecter would think about it since they are the ones most likely to care. I think a collector would assume you made the damascus and the sheath if the knife were described as 'sole authorship' ...

[Andrew Garrett]

Sorry for going AWOL on this Ray. I'm back.

I have decided to go with the modified versions of your definitions (you almost won me over). The way I figure, these offer a more complete understanding which extends across a larger section of the knife world in general, rather than requiring that the reader have a firm understanding that we are talking about home-workshop knives.

In my view, going this route gives us more and costs us nothing in meaning, clarity, or identity. It also serves to bring knives like Buck's factory customs into context with our own efforts.

So..., here is my final offering (I did remove the word 'significant' from the last one).
Custom Knife - A knife made by a knife maker to his own specifications which distinguish it from readily available factory made or mass produced knives.

Custom Made Knife - A knife made to the specifications of someone other than the knife maker which distinguish it from readily available factory made or mass produced knives.

[Customized Knife - Any knife modified in such a way as to impact design and/or function. This would include artwork, decorative filework, serrations, finger grooves, handle
material, etc not normally offered by the knife maker. This term may be applied to modified kit and factory knives. This term does not extend to minor efforts to 'personalize' a knife such as putting initials on it, etc.

[Andrew Garrett]

As for 'Sole Authorship'..., a couple questions come to mind.

...stabilizing the handle material?
...using mass produced factory damascus readily available in billet form just like other alloys? Now, I tend to agree with you guys on this one, but the question is valid.

Consider, Micarta, or G-10. Similar phenolics can easily be made by the maker (I've done denim myself). Then there's Dymondwood, reconstituted stone, jigged or picked bone. If we require a maker to make his own damascus in order to qualify for this definition, then we should ask ourselves why. We may find that the answer applies to these and other handle materials as well, for much the same reason.

Thoughts?