Knifemaking Definitions Project

[Ray Rogers]

Very true. So far, terms like 'primitive' and 'bush' are not in common use as a style of knife making in the same sense that Neo-Tribal is. Right now, those terms primarily evoke a style of knife, at least in my mind. This is one of the areas where we will likely have more room to work than we have had with the more established (although hazily defined) terms that we started with ...

[Ray Rogers]

OK, we have a definition of Neo-Tribal as defined by the guys who live there:

Neo-Tribal: - A school of knife making that emphasises the enjoyment of the knife making process. N-T combines ancient and modern tools, materials, and techniques which can include such things as harvesting their own wood, using rosins instead of glue, and forging in wood or coal fires. N-T keeps the use of electricity to a minimum, prefers creative solutions over technology, while encouraging high-quality, original hand craftsmanship, innovation, and the efficient use of resources.

This definition describes a particular style of knife making. It does not necessarily describe knives that are made completely by hand processes without the aid of electricity and I think we need to assign a term for that. Let's see if we can find a term might describe the production of a modern looking knife by these methods. 'Primitive' might not be the best term in this case.

It does not specifically describe knives that are made by a combination of hand processes and hand guided power tools (the methods most of us use) and I think we need a term for that. Probably 'handmade, handcrafted' for this one.

There are also 'forged' and 'hand forged' for which my off the cuff definitions would be 'forged to shape with the aid of powered equipment' and 'forged to shape by hand' respectively. Knives in these categories will also fall into the 'primitive' or 'hand' categories depending on what happened after the blade was forged.

before we get down to the nitty gritty of defining each of these terms are there any categories closely related to these that should be included in this group that I have overlooked?

[Drac]

Just for curiosity?s sack I'm trading this weekend one of my knives for one of another makers at the Ren Fair down here in the Dallas area. The knife I'm trading for will be a napped stone knife; does it fit into Neo-Tribal or Primitive?

Jim

[Ray Rogers]

We can't say for sure about the Primitive yet because we haven't defined it but it's not N-T. Heck, for knapped stone knives we might have to say 'prehistoric' !

Good point though, those knives have to fit somewhere. Perhaps their category should simply be 'knapped' ....

[Drac]

Sorry about that. It came off as a little smart. Wasn't ment to be.

Jim

[Ray Rogers]

Jim,

I didn't see it that way at all and, re-reading it, I still can't make it come out that way. Seemed a fair question to me. I traded a knapped knife from Knapper Bill so I see your point (pun intended) ...

[Drac]

The person I'm trading with (and trying to make at least a guest appearance here) in Michael Roegner out of Texas. He makes some beautiful pieces out of a variety of stones beside flint and obsidian. He had some out of all sorts of stones on display; some jasper & opal just to name a few. He may charge less for his pieces than I do but I know I'm getting the best out of this bargain.



When I spent some time talking with him he filled me in on some details of his craft and while I knew that napped knives were used later than most people knew I was surprised that they were used in Europe even through the English Renaissance and later. As a steel knife could be worth over 3 months of earnings and the stones were available they were commonly used. Mostly in flacks but he said that knives were still being made.

I agree about the use of primitive as more of a style vs. a category. As J. Loose has show in the past that the "primitive" Norse were anything but when it came to making steel & using it.

One way I could see it being used would be toward things like non-ferrous blade materials such as bone, stone, bronze, ect using period correct techniques.

Or you could use the idea of Period Crafting/Pieces to cover the making of knives using techniques and equipment found in the applicable time periods. Coal forging, smelting, hammer, leather sanding all belong.

Jim

[Ray Rogers]

I like that term, Period Crafting. I think we can find a place for it.

For now, while keeping in mind that we are trying to work backwards to finding a definition for the 'hand' terms, let's take a look at the 'forged' terms. I don't see these as necessarily being descriptions of how an entire knife was completed as we have other terms that cover that. I see these are merely descriptive of how the blade is basically formed. In that vein, I offer thee definitions as a starting point:

Forged Blade: A blade whose initial shape is created using hand guided forging equipment such as hydraulic presses and power hammers.

Hand Forged Blade: A blade whose initial shape is created in a forging process using only manual tools such as hammers, fullers, etc.

[Drac]

Would there be a qualifier on how much is removed off of the blade after forging? Say that if you grind more than 33% after the forge it's still considered a stock removal?

Where would foot powered hammers fall into this? I've seen smiths who used a counter balanced system that was driven by foot. I would think that that was still hand forged but it was a fairly modern system, very high tech.

Jim

[Ray Rogers]

While we all know that the vast majority of forged knives reach their final shape by a very liberal application of stock reduction techniques I can't see putting any kind of limitation in the term. First, simply because it would be near impossible to quantify whether or not you forged X% to shape or not. This is the same logic that I have applied to other definitions and the basis of most of the differnces in Andy's version and my version of some definitions - if you can't realistically and easily measure it or if circumstances beyond your control can later change whether or not the definition can be applied to your knife then the definition fails, IMO.

Secondly, we'd never get the forging guys to agree to something like that. So, if you use a forge and you somehow shape the blade while its hot then its forged.

As for treadle hammers, that's a good point. I'd be inclined to include then in the 'forged' definition since they are hand guided like any other power hammer, just a different power source. Seems to me we have to go that way if we agree on the 'hand forged' definition since the use of hand power is central to that definition....

[NJStricker]

My only comment to that Ray is that there are makers out there that essentially do stock removal, but then heat them up and hammer on them a few times to give them some texture so they can sell them as "forged" to the blackpowder/mountainman crowd. Nothing about the shape of the knife or the bevel has been forged, but they have been hammered on.

[Ray Rogers]

I agree Nathan, that hardly sounds like they are being honest with their customers. On the other hand, the effect of that much forging is pretty much the same as if the knife were fully forged. And, at this point, we don't know if all such a makers would call their knives 'hand forged' or if they simply look at what they do as a way to decorate the blade to make it look authentic - a process not unlike artificially patinating, pitting, or texturing a blade to make it look old. Nothing wrong with that on the surface, just depends on how the maker represents what he did and we're not the Honesty Police, we're just trying to define the terms.

So, the definitions both say the blade must be 'shaped' to be called forged and the knives in your question would fail that definition....

[Ray Rogers]

Sorry for the long delay but sometimes life intrudes. Since there has been no further input I must assume that what we have up to this point is reasonably satisfactory. Below are some new definitions. I followed the general consensus and let Hand Made and Hand Crafted be synonyms and I added Made by Hand to cover those cases where we want to describe a knife made with hand tools only. If you can think of a better term I'm open to suggestions. I've also added Mid-Tech for discussion but I don't really anticipate much variance on it. I think we're about done with the most important terms ...


Made by Hand- files, sandpaper, hacksaws, etc, no power tools.

Hand Crafted, Hand Made - any combination of hand tools and hand controlled power tools.

Mid-Tech - The blade, handle, or scales were blanked out by some automated process for which the maker supplied directions but the knife was otherwise assembled and finished by hand.

[NJStricker]

Okay. . .how do you explain the difference between "made by hand" and "hand made" to a customer? or a new knifemaker?

Ray, all you've done is assign another set of words to your idea of a knife made completely without power tools. Before, you used hand made. We argued that hand made is synonymous with hand crafted. So now all you are doing is calling it something else. I think this would ultimately add to the confusion, not clarify it.

[Ray Rogers]

As for how to explain the differences in the terms to new knifemakers or customers, that, of course, is the point of this whole exercise. We're attempting to find ways to do just that.

Iinitially I wanted to separate 'hand crafted' and 'hand made' for that purpose and that still seems to me to be the better way to make the meaning clear. There are makers who make knives without power tools and they are proud of that fact. There is as much a need for a term to describe that situation as there is a need to describe a 'forged' blade or a knife made by a single maker (sole authorship). Problem is, we don't seem to have such a term and, to me, that is confusing. I admit that 'Made by Hand' may not be optimal but, like I said in that last post, if anyone can offer an alternative I would sure like to hear it...