Round stock for integrals

[Josh Blount]

Hey guys,
Well, classes are about to end for the summer and I've got some ideas for forging a few integrals while I'm off. I've never done this before, some I'm wondering where I can find round stock. The knives I thinking about doing are small to medium size, so I'm thinking something about 1/2" diameter. I haven't used anything but 5160 since I really got into forging, so I'm not sure what type of steel I want. I'd like something that heat-treats similiar to 5160 - I really don't think I've gotten all the nuances of 5160 yet, so I don't want to try anything too different. Anyway, if anybody has a source, let me know. Thanks guys!

Josh

[John M Cohea]

Josh, most Industrial supply stores that sell machinist`s tools sell drill rod, which in most cases is 0-1, from very small to very large, or you can order from Grainger, MSC,ect. Hope this helps.

[Chuck Burrows]

In recycled material try out some automobile coil springs or torsion bars. From what I've read they are 5160 and are in the 1/2" to 3/4" diameter range. (I believe www.anvilfire.com has a chart that shows the steel used in the various types of scrap.)

[cactusforge]

Josh, Try some round 01 in .015 oversize you will find it at a tool steel supplier it is oversize because that way thy can cut down there stock it then run it through a centerless grinder to get the odd sizes. It is a lot cheaper. Gib

[Josh Blount]

Thanks for all the help guys. I looked at the drill rod, MSC's pretty cheap, so that's probably what I'll try for now. Thanks!

Josh

[Darren Ellis]

Hi Josh,

Check out this place:

http://www.toolanddie.com/


They have 12 foot sections of Timken 1/2" O1 drill rod for ~$20 with free shipping.

-Darren

[Jason Cutter]

Some places do stock round bar stock in 52100. If you've been largely forging 5160, you'll notice a HUGE difference forging O-1 - it doesnt want to move ! Possibly worse than 52100. How about really thick bars of 1084 - forges like 5160 and you could still do integrals. Would be easier to compact and make fatter too, if not thick enough. I presume you're talking about forging in the integral bolsters, not grinding them in (which is what I've been trying to do).

But drill rod O-1 is a good material if you can be bothered with forging O-1. It is precision ground round so it can be a bit more expensive, but it is still cheaper than flat ground O-1 and is easy to find.

Good luck with the integrals. Jason.

[T Blade]

Josh,
I Just acquired 24 PCS. of 5160H. They measure ??X 16?, I?d be willing to part with several pieces. They came from the supplier who manufactures coil springs for my employer. I received them as the drops when the coils are wound and cut from the round stock, so they require no straightening. We manufacture the spring hanger. These hangers are made to ASME specs for power piping, up to nuclear grade, so I know this stuff is the goods. I even have the heat # for traceability. If you?re interested maybe we can work something out.:cool:

[wardn1]

I'd be interested in getting some 5160 round stock. I haven't been able to find it anywhere. I tried looking up spring shops in the phone book and calling them. Most of them didn't even know what I was talking about.

[NickWheeler]

I'll throw in a few pennies for thought here Josh-

First off, if you want to forge down rod, I'd recommend W1. It's much more cooperative under the hammer, you can harden just the very edge, or you can harden it through like glass.

I feel (from my testing) that to fully get all the benefits from 01 you need to have a very accurate heat-source to soak it at austenitizing temp...i.e. salt bath or oven. I'm not saying you can't make very good knives with O1 without those tools, but I really think it will put you on the top shelf if you can.

W1 is so simple it really works even with simple stuff. You can buy it very cheap from just about anywhere, but I like to buy it from Crucible.

On another note, you DO NOT have to have round stock to make an integral. You can do it with 3/16 if you really want to.

Hammering on the edges of the bar with a heavy hammer will allow you to thicken it up a bit. But if you really want to thicken it up...you can forge down a start for the tang. Then with a localized heat on the ricasso, and the blade point down in a vise, you can place a piece of heavy stock (usually round) with a hole drilled in it over the tang. Hammer down hard on that, and it will stuff the ricasso down and out...making a nice fat integral.

It's not easy. The first time we tried it here it didn't work. But with practice it really works.

Nick

[Josh Blount]

Hey Nick,
Thanks, that's very helpful. I'm going to go with the W1 for now. What's your method for heat-treating W1? I'll forge several test knives to begin with, but a good starting point would be helpful. Would a triple quench be beneficial? Also, do you use water or brine for the quench? Anyway, thanks again.

Josh

[NickWheeler]

Hi again Josh-

No problem, ideas for starting points always help me out too.

I start off moving it HOT. As I get closer to shape I reduce the heats (pretty much like all of them).

For heat-treating in a forge, I really recommend doing it inside of a pipe. Just get a good heavy pipe, say 1/4-3/8" wall, 2.5-3" diameter. You'll have a much easier time getting a good even heat.

I always put the blades in tang first and get some color in the ricasso. Flip it around and take it to non-magnetic, plus a 10 count. I usually do that about 5 times or so.

I have done almost all of my W1 with clay, and it hardens nicely this way in both Tough Quench from Brownell's, and water.

If you taking it into water, I feel it's better to be in the lower end of the austenitizing window...somewhere around 1400-1450. In oil the higher end...1500-1550 works well for me.

It will get screaming hard in water, but of course you have some more risks for cracking.

If you really want to go the water route, I'd recommend going into water for about 3 seconds, and then right into oil, then temper IMMEDIATELY. I haven't cracked one yet doing it that way.

This is by no means the be-all, end-all method...it's just some stuff that seems to work really well for me.

Oh yea, I forgot to mention, all of the blades I've done out of it have cut great.

Nick

[Josh Blount]

Hey Nick,
Thanks, that's a big help! I ordered some W1 yesterday. Hopefully I'll get to play with it some next week. Finished my last exam for the semester this morning so my thoughts have turned to knives . . .

Josh

[oldwolf]

Hey Nick,

Interesting info. I've only hardened in oil around 160 degress so was interested in the comment about water for 3 sec. and then oil. Just started forging and would like to try W1 also. I assume the oil after the water is not heated. Sounds like a stupid question now that I see it, but just to clarify.

Ken

[NickWheeler]

No stupid questions around here.

Tom Ferry and I (we're friends) started water hardening about the same time and really broke a lot of blades working to TRY to figure it out.

So hopefully if he has time he can chime in here too.

The water I've used has been both straight tap water and brine. The brine I made up was following an old blacksmith's advice...."put enough salt in the water until an egg will float in it."

But really, I think what worked best for me was straight tap water, at least 70 degrees F with some dish soap in it to help break surface tension.

I've only broken one blade IN the water. All of the others I broke (during the learning curve)...broke while I was looking at them after they were out of the water. That's why I say temper IMMEDIATELY.

For water to oil, I used 70 degree or hotter water, and then went into 130 degree oil.

I've found though, that the Tough Quench really solves problems by being fairly close to the speed of water, but with no cracking.

I have heard of several other quench mediums made by places like Park Chemical and Heat-Bath that I'd like to try...but I haven't found anyone that will sell it to me in less than 55 gallon drums.

Let me know how it works out fellas.

Nick