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The Business of Knife Making A forum dedicated to all aspects of running, managing and legal operational issues relating to the custom knife making and custom knife selling industry.

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  #31  
Old 02-03-2006, 07:08 PM
Al Polkowski Al Polkowski is offline
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Please......someone give Les his Ritalin.......

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  #32  
Old 02-06-2006, 05:32 PM
Dan Graves Dan Graves is offline
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I am a fulltime maker who is profitable. My profits are not huge and I dont believe I will get rich from bladesmithing, but I am rich in the fact I get up every morning looking forward to the day of bladesmithing. It is a calling and love that drives me and not money and I hope it is always that way. Bill Moran once told me, dont be a knifemaker if you want to be money rich. Defining rich? I am rich.


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  #33  
Old 02-06-2006, 05:43 PM
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Les Robertson Les Robertson is offline
 
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Hi Dan,

Is knife making your sole and only source of Income?

Is the profit from your knife making paying all your bills?

If not, could you make a living doing nothing but making knive?


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  #34  
Old 02-06-2006, 06:08 PM
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Les Robertson Les Robertson is offline
 
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Guys,

Makers always take this so personal and I don't know why?

Ok, your an artist. The steel "talks" to you. It is a calling. ETC. You don't want to write a plan of any type and fly by the seat of your pants, great.

If you are doing it, however you are doing it and it makes you happy then that is truly what matters.

I have written time and time again, it is your business and you are responsible for everything good, bad or indifferent. If you do violate the basic laws of business then you don't get to "Bitch" when:

You do not make enough money to cover expenses. If you're not....it's your fault.

You do not sell out at shows. If you're not...it's your fault.

You do not get articles or covers in and on magazines. If you are not...it's your fault.

You do not get paid what you think you are worth. If you are not...its your fault.

You see other makers (in your opinion) who do lesser work by get more press, make more sales and/or have more internet "Buzz".

I am not an artist, I do not view custom knives as a a "calling". I do have an exceptional passion for custom knives.

My business turns a profit, so much so that it has been my sole source of income for the last 11 years. My passion is my business and I know of few other people who can do wha t they love and have it pay the bills. Especailly when you throw in raising a couple of girls and all the funds that entails.

Guys make your statements and make your arguements then ask yourself could I have done something different and/or better.

I think this pretty much sums it up.

Enjoy.


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  #35  
Old 02-06-2006, 08:19 PM
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TikTock TikTock is offline
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I dont think makers are taking it personally. You are referring to a business selling other peoples' knives..which might indeed be all about cover articles and coverage and "hot"ness....you depend, in fact, on other peoples' "calling"....its wholly a different business, different attitude, IMHO....and maybe thats why you feel like makers take your business views personally. I am not saying makers dont need to be good buinessmen, but I think a bigger part of a makers success IS is calling, his style, and his drive...not his ability to make a good business plan. Anyone can make a plan....most business that have a plan fail anyways....maybe I am way off....


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  #36  
Old 02-06-2006, 09:17 PM
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SharpByCoop SharpByCoop is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TikTock
but I think a bigger part of a makers success IS is calling, his style, and his drive...not his ability to make a good business plan. Anyone can make a plan....most business that have a plan fail anyways....maybe I am way off....
Most businesses DO fail. Having a plan would easily minimize the losses.

This really boils down to a definition of 'success'....

I agree that style is a most important ingredient. I also agree that the maker has to have drive. ALL successful artists AND businessmen have 'drive'.

I also submit that there are probably twenty 'driven', yet financially unsuccessful makers for every one who has both. Stay unsuccessful for long enough and your calling calls you away. Fact.

Jon was smart enough to recognize his jewelery pays the bills better, and changed his work habits accordingly. Had he stuck with his 'calling and passion' alone, he would NOT be so pleased to continue. I'd hate to lose him, and we haven't.

What Les is preaching to us--over and over and over--is that it's not enough to go with your calling in the long run to sustain you. I'm listening and nodding even when I don't completely understand what to do. I sure won't justify that my lack of formulating a rocksolid plan is going to keep me going. I know better.

What I HAVE done is signed-up for a 'Writing a Business Plan' course at my local high school under 'continuing education'. I'm worth the effort.

Coop


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  #37  
Old 02-06-2006, 09:22 PM
Dan Graves Dan Graves is offline
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Les, Yes it is my sole way of making money. It is all the money I make and I am comfortable. I plan to go out for a nice meal with a girl tommorow night and I will buy as I am from the old school. Not to say your points are wrong, but some of us are not in it just for the money. I am of the believe, make a fine piece and it will sell. Quality sells itself. Granted, my work dosnt sell for as high at it should (or so I am told by othes). I am also VERY prolific. I make a lot of blades. Look at the dagger I posted a few days ago and I will post a Bowie I just completed today. I wont have a hard time selling either piece and I wont attend a show. You are very correct when you say "A niche has to be carved out" Again, I dont disagree with anything you have stated, its just there is more than one way to skin a cat.


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  #38  
Old 02-06-2006, 09:55 PM
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Good points on all counts...everything must meet at a common point. As a part-timer, its a great topic to listen to talked about by the pros!


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  #39  
Old 02-06-2006, 10:03 PM
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Les Robertson Les Robertson is offline
 
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Hi Guys,

Ok let me clarify as I am obviously not getting through here.

It is your business, craft, hobby, calling, whatever. You are responsible for everything good bad or indifferent.

It is true that success can be measured in many different ways.

A business plan or marketing plan is not necessary.

The problem that I run into over and over again is makers bitching and complaining about "some other maker".

Why do they sell out, why do they get the attention, why do they get the money they do, how come the dealers want their knives and not mine, yada yada yada.

THe majority of these makers have no business plan. They don't know how to price their knives, they don't know what the market is doing, they don't know why their knives aren't selling. Correction I do know....it's the Economy stupid.

These makers are the same ones who blame slow show sales on the economy, the location, the time of year, their table location inside the room, the lighting, etc.

I had a maker tell me one time that he had slow sales at a show because in a square room his table was facing a wall (he was in the middle of the room). I felt obliged to point out that in a square room ......we all face a wall.

I then asked him how many invitations he sent out to let his clients know that the show was happening....that is the show promoters responsibility. Which magazine did you advertise in to let your clients know you were going to be at the show? Again that was the show promoters responsibility to run an ad with his name in it. Did you post photo's on your web site that showed what knives you are taking to the show? Im a knife maker not a photographer, besides I don't have a web site.

Ok, the next obvious question is what makes you think any one even knows who you are? The fact that you are an artist or have the "calling" means squat. What are you doing to introduce you and your work to the buying public.

In the "Business of Knifemaking" forum the question there is "how do I get my profile in a magazine" Ed Caffery have a very instructive post. To sum up...pay your dues.

Too many knife makers do not want to hear that they have to pay their dues....they want it now.

I once posted on this very forum that for $100 I would give you the answer as to how to get an article on a maker in a magazine. I guaranteed this or your money back. GUARANTEED OR YOUR MONEY BACK! GUARANTEED OR YOUR MONEY BACK.

Guess how many knife makers contacted me? 2 that is right 2.

How much is an article worth? I talked with Sam Butler this past weekend in Little Rock. He told me he took over 40 orders in 3 weeks from the article I wrote on him. This is an ABS apprentice smith who now has orders to fill for the next two years. This will easily take him into his Journeyman Smith rating. How much did this article cost Sam $0.00

How did Sam get a 5 page article in Blade Magazine? The same way that Adam DesRosier did. No, they didn't send me a check for $100.

If you want to know, send me a check for $100.

I understand that my job is different from that of the maker. My job is to be able to identify any makers position in any market and subsequently be able to price what the knife should sell for and make recommendations based primarily on value for the money.

As value for the money will almost always determine long term position in a market, desireablity in the aftermarket there by returning to pouplarity in the primary market.

While money may have little importance to the "artist" let me tell you it has a huge impact on the buyers.

We are going through a time right now where makers and dealers alike are starting to fall by the way side. Why? The market has become saturated with makers who spend little or no time edcuating potential buyers. Consequently, there are not enough buyers to support all the makers.

This in turn creates a very competitive market as supply is outpacing demand.

For every maker out there who does not want to deal with the business aspects of custom knives you are making it that much easier for those who do. They will get your customers.

Being popular is not always the key to success, having a vaild business plan is not always a key to success. Being innovative and going to great lengths to educated your customers and potential customers are not always keys to success. But having these sure can't hurt!

Enjoy being an artist, answer your calling, be frugal in your advertising and education. Just don't bitch when it doesn't work out.


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  #40  
Old 02-06-2006, 10:07 PM
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Les Robertson Les Robertson is offline
 
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Hi Dan,

Just out of curiosity what do you do for health care? Im always looking for alternate sources.


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  #41  
Old 02-06-2006, 10:16 PM
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Les Robertson Les Robertson is offline
 
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HI Coop,

As an artist don't you find it interesting regarding the "Artist" pecking order?

That is to say, how many knife makers won't have a picture taken by you because you are charging "too much"?

Forget the fact that you will take pictures they can put on a web site. These same pictures can be placed in ads. As well these pictures are also magazine ready should the maker be selected to be put in an article. The beneifts are numerous. How many times has a maker missed out on being in an article or did not have a featured photo because they didn't have a great professional photo of their work. Countless Im sure.

BTW, I have another article on some Vanguard knives coming out later this year so I will need some more pictures. Jim Cooper Offical Photographer of Vanguard Knives.

Also, since Im writing for Knives Illustrated as well now I will have makers sending knives your way for photographs....you know for their articles.

Ok, I'll stop that is enough smart ass for one day.


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  #42  
Old 02-06-2006, 10:57 PM
Dan Graves Dan Graves is offline
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Les, as I stated before. I dont disagree with anything you have said. There are just more ways to skin a cat. As far as health care, price Blue Cross.


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  #43  
Old 02-06-2006, 11:35 PM
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Les Robertson Les Robertson is offline
 
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Hi Dan,

Thanks, Blue Cross is who I use.

Im glad the business is working out for you. There are very few of us who make a full time living at this.

I guess my sensitivity comes from those makers who feel they are owed something just because they make a knife. Every successful maker I know has busted his or her butt to get to where they are at. Nothing is guaranteed and nothing is given.


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  #44  
Old 02-07-2006, 06:23 AM
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TikTock TikTock is offline
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Thanks for the thorough and well-put response! I, too, am not saying you are wrong or that business is not a very important aspect of anything people do for a full-time living. What I have been tying to say is that for a maker, this isn’t an equal product-driven market where business makes all the difference and competition and sales-savvy determines everything. I guess I am just missing where talent comes into your equation, as a maker’s product is really his lifeblood. A full time maker with little style and a full business understanding seems far less likely to succeed than a talented maker who hasn’t gone to Wharton.

Now, for a dealer, this is different, from how I see it. A dealer, I would assume, must take into account a maker's business plan even more so than the makers. If a maker is unreliable or inconsistent or not profitable, a dealer is left with a bad apple and lost business and a customer base who does not have trust in the ability of the purveyor to choose who he represents carefully. I would guess this quickly translates into lost sales (but you would be the #1 expert on that side of things)

I am a part time maker. I have never had any problem selling anything I have offered to the market, but I do not make the mistake in assuming that means in any way that I could do it for a living because I work in business and know that selling at one level does not translate into selling at any other level. The market is finite and I cannot, at this point, estimate if my capacity or even my current throughput would ever be supported by the market demand. I think this is where business comes into knifemaking. I do not think a maker can develop a business plan unless they first know the market supports HIS work enough to meet what they have determined they are able to produce.

My fulltime job is in the business sector, and my day-to day job involves estimating production throughput and capacity, evaluating competition, and then prioritizing and managing high level product development projects that later translate into the applications which build or enhance our product. Its highly competitive and a world-wide business in which we are #1 to the point of near monopoly.

Without a full and sound business plan, that would go to the toilet in less than a year. But I do not and cannot take the ultimate product out of that plan and moreso, cannot underestimate the importance of simple supply and demand in a market where quality is a deciding factor. When selling anything, the product is always #1. We would not have a sound business plan if our focus was not creating a product that was superior to our competitors.

Bringing this back full circle, I am 100% with you as a dealer. When looking at makers and their overall success, makers without a sound understanding of business and how product driven sales work are at a severe disadvantage when compared to makers who are equally as skilled but have a grasp on the pulse of the market. But knifemaking is not as concrete as other product driven markets because of such immeasurable factors as style. Unless the market has already proven that a maker’s product is desirable, no business plan will spontaneously create those immeasurable differences.

I hope none of my comments came off as argumentative…working in business full time, I just see such a difference in the world of knifemaking. Not so much difference in the world of knife purveying, but a makers work is much more akin, in my view, to that of an artist or musician than that of a dealer.


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Last edited by TikTock; 02-07-2006 at 07:47 AM.
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  #45  
Old 02-07-2006, 07:44 AM
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RogerP RogerP is offline
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Really interesting and informative discussion here - the content is entirely worthy of a magazine article, IMHO. So Les, just print it out and forward it to your favorite editor. And then send me a checque for $100. Or a credit against my next order will be fine.

On the photography point, I have to echo Les' observation about the reluctance of many makers to have their work professionally photographed. I don't interact with nearly as many makers as Les, but the amount of times that I have heard "it's too expensive.." man, it really makes me shake my head. Particularly when it comes from a full time maker.

Another spin on this issue - you know when having a web site can be a liability? When the information and photos are five plus years out of date. Some makers don't EVER update their sites. Their craft may have progressed and improved exponentially in that time frame, but a potential customer coming to their site would never know.

Roger
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