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The Business of Knife Making A forum dedicated to all aspects of running, managing and legal operational issues relating to the custom knife making and custom knife selling industry.

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  #16  
Old 01-31-2006, 11:33 AM
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Hi John,

You are not being difficult, you have an excellent point. Having been a full time custom knife maker you know that like it or not the business end of making knives eventually rears its "ugly" head.

Once you move from hobby maker to becoming more serious the expenses start to accrue. Machines, tools, belts, etc. It is at this point that your knives will have to start turning a profit.

Should a maker make as much money as they possibly can for each knife they make. The simple answer is yes. Just as the simple answer to the question what is any knife worth is: What somene will pay for it.

So how do you get to the point where your knives demand a premium? For 99% of the knife makers out there it is years of hard work. Usually a fair amount of advertising (choose your medium), attending shows, working with dealers, utilitzing the Internet. The maker can use one, all, any combination of the 4 or none of the 4.

Additionally, the knife maker needs to be innovative, this catches the attention of collectors, magazines and dealers. Your knives have to be competitively priced for the market you enter. This price will depend in great part to your position in that market. The higher up you are the more money your knives will command. If you are competiting in a market with a very small following you can choose two paths.

1) You choose to become the premier maker in that market. You will spend a lot of money in advertising. You will have to become the authority, the SME (Subject Matter Expert). You will have to train and/or encourage others to particpate in your market. After all if you are the only one in the market then you are both the best and the worst maker. An example of this is Ed Fowler. Ed put in a decade to promote a particular steel. Now that Ed has reached the top in this market his prices have become such that those he trained are now reaping the rewards. Bill Burke for instance was trained by Ed. For many Ed's prices have become to expensive so they choose to have Bill build them a knife for a lot less money. This of course has helped Bill's popluarity and may have hurt Ed's sales somewhat. However, ultimately some buying Bill's knives will opt for one from the "teacher" and Ed will pick up some additional sales.

2) Like Bill Burke you find a mentor and walk down the path the Mentor has created. You will get less money for your knives, however you will have less invested. However, eventually if you want to have your prices go up, you will have to break away from the mentor and start your own path.

Those makers who are "hot" but build very few knives, eventually cool off and some fade away. They join the "Best Knife Makers You Never Heard Of" club.

As you point out collectors (about 90%) buy, sell/trade and move on. Which like it or not is the pattern of even very wealthy collectors. The main reasons are 1) to raise money fo r the next knife, 2) their custom knife education level has grown and 3) they are more selective in what they want in their collectionl. So they will selland/or trade mulitple knives to get one.

Most collectors (espeicailly the experienced ones) will only chase a makers work so far. Then they lose interest and move on to the next person. At that point demand for the "hot" makers work cools, premiums paid become less and ultimately there are those who will lose money on the "hot" makers work. Once this happens that knife style and perhaps that maker are dead in the water.

Example. I was asked by maker some years back about his entering a very mature market. I explained to him that there were 3 main makers and because the style had been around for so long it would be difficult to enter that market with any degree of success. He told me I was full of it and he would prove me wrong. He designed a knife with a price point of less than $200 and received over 70 orders in a short period of time.
Of course he had to fill these orders first and could not introduce anything new. He of course let me know he had all these orders and so much for my "expertise".

As time went on he filled the orders but an interesting thing happened. Those who had received their knives early decided to move on to the next knife and sold this makers work (for a loss) to generate funds for the next knife. While the knives were "used" they certainly were not abused. So those who were sitting at #75 with another 8 months to wait decided to buy that knife and save some money. This pattern repeated itself several times. As well some paying attention to this decided there was no reason to buy knives that were not going to hold there value. Orders started to be cancelled and new orders were not forthcoming. This makers foray into this market did not turn out well. While his knives had a great price point but they lacked innovation. His delivery times were so strung out he could not keep the good "buzz" going on the Internet. Ultimately he was not able to compete with those 3 makers. I belive he is still around, however you seldom if ever hear from him or see his work. It was a costly lesson because he failed to utilize a sound business plan.

Had he done so he would have understood that it would have been better to do limited runs of say 20 knives. He would have finished the knives much earlier, there by eliminating #75 from buying #2's knife when he was done with it. #2 knife would have probably sold for retail or slightly above since there were so few made. Next the maker would have been able to introduce 3 knives in the same time frame instead of one. He would have found some people wanted all 3 (with the same serial number). Some would have bought mulitples in anticipation of the knives bringing a premium, etc. However, Im sure it was much more cost effective to make 75 of the same pattern, espcially if you are using lazer, water jet and/or CNC technology. When this question presents itself you have to be able to do break even scenarios' to help decide which is the best way to go.

Few if any makers ever sit down and do a comprehensive business plan.

Back to a "Few Knives". What happens to most "hot" makers is that they suffer the Sophmore Jinx. Their first knife takes off. Lots of press, lots of orders and lots of "love" from the Internet crowd. However, most are unable to captilize on this for numerous reasons and the heat dissapates.

I had a chat with a maker who was annoyed because he wasn't getting his "due" on some of the forums. Note, this maker is very competitive in several different markets, sells everything he can make (usually pre-sold), has an 18 month wait and is a full time knife maker.

Now that ladies and gentlemen that is a professional knife maker. He has had is "hot" moments. But ultimately he understands that the heat dissapates and that only through developing a plan can he maintain his position.

To sum up:

Yes, makes should get the most money they can for their labor. However, many fail to realize that the marketplace does not value their labor as much as they do.

Makers who are hot have to meet the deamand with supply as best they can. There are ways to balance the two to keep interest in your knives piqued. Doing this keeps demand high in the secondary market which leads to even greater demand in the primary market. This in turn raises prices in both.

Those makers who want to work in a very small or niche market have to understand that monetary success will require a great investment of time and captial in the beginning. Look forward to little or no salary for 2-3 years and 60-80 hour weeks.

Lastly remember that most "artists" make very little money. Primarily because they do not incorporate a business plan into their artistry.


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  #17  
Old 01-31-2006, 11:58 AM
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Les, You mentioned the idea of studying under a mentor then breaking away. I couldnt agree more. To stay away from mentioning any names but I have looked at a certain makers work that just blows me away with his abilities and expertise but would be much more impressed if it didnt looks so IDENTICAL to his Mentors work. Its almost like a maker has the ability to create works of Art but doesnt have the ability to come up with styles of his own. If im going to buy a knife I probably would just spend my money on the Mentors work even though it might cost me a little more. Style and Ideas and the ability to come up with new things that catch a buyers eyes are a big role in what makes a Maker HOT. Just taking another maker and trying to duplicate his work to a T holds the maker back from acheiving that HOT status. I might be just blowing smoke since this maker probably does sell everything he makes and cant make them fast enough but thats just my thoughts.

Shane


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  #18  
Old 01-31-2006, 02:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Les Robertson
Hi John,
As a side note... I've changed my first name to "Jól," pronounced "Yule."

Long story.

Quote:
Yes, makes should get the most money they can for their labor. However, many fail to realize that the marketplace does not value their labor as much as they do.
You have neatly described why I no longer make knives for primary income.


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  #19  
Old 01-31-2006, 05:06 PM
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dammit Les, everytime you ask a question it's the same thing - you already know the answer (or think you know the answer) and when others respond you proceed to educate them. No fun! I don't want to learn stuff - I just want to be right!



Kidding aside, if I'm reading your parameters correctly, then you're looking for input on makers who have established broad and lasting appeal in the custom knife market, whose knives command a premium and will continue to do so. If that's the case, then the list of "hot" makers will be populated by the likes of Fisk, Fowler, SR Johnson, Kressler, etc... in the world of folders one might include the likes of Lake, Ruple, Boguszewski, Ralph, Horn, Onion, and others... but if you're talking about makers who are arguably still on an upward trajectory, then "hot" will be a bit more of a subjective or speculative description. Take John Young, for example. His knives are currently very highly sought after and many folks have called him the heir apparent to the S.R. Johnson throne. But it's impossible to know with any degree of certainty where he will be in the custom knife world in 5 years or even 6 months. At one point in time Steve Filicietti was pretty hot. So was Keith Kilby.

I mentioned Burt earlier because I see him on an upward trajectory, and yeah, he's one of my favorites too. What can I say, I like the guy. A full time Mastersmith, talented, diverse, innovative, and a nice guy. Broad appeal too, but not nearly "hot" in the sense of a Fisk.

Then again, you did allude to some apprentice and journeyman smiths that you thought might be "hot." I'm guessing you'd probably mention Gatlin - who has benefitted from solid promotion by Fisk, youself, and others as well. But again, this is a bit subjective and somewhat speculative. And if Gatlin is hot, then maybe we should also be talking about Farr (limited production), DesRosiers (relative newcomer), Tom Krein, and surely many others...

Who knows... I will say this, though, as a collector who takes particular pleasure in pursuing the work of newer or less well known makers, it's a question I think about quite a bit. And there's never a shortage of surprises


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  #20  
Old 01-31-2006, 05:19 PM
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Hi John,

If you are going to operate in a niche market it is essential that you put forth the effort to educate your potential clients. Doing this makes them understand why you should get the prices you are asking. No maker comes on to the scene commanding top dollar.

These are some of the questions I ask makers when they come to me for advise about increasing their prices.

How many articles did you write for the knife magazines?

Did you write a book that would help educate potential buyers.

Did you conduct any seminars educating collectors?

How many shows across the country did you set up at?

How many magazines and how often did you advertise your knives in?

Did you list your web site in Blade and Knives Illustrated?

Did you create a business plan and marketing plan? This would have forced you to identify the market you want to compete in. Shown you your position in that market. Then would have shown you how to optimize your time and money to get the best bang for your advertising dollar.

Inability to raise capital is the number 1 reason that business fail. The number 1 reason that a business cannot raise capital is that either does not have a viable business plan or it has no business plan.

Not having a business plan is like trying to find your way to an unknow location without a map.

Here is an example for you. When I revised my business plan last summer I wanted to increase my "exposure" to wider audience. I determined one avenue of approach would be to start writing for the magazines. I have recently had published two articles in Blade and I am schedulded as of Jan 06 to write 4 more maker profiles. Additionally I was contacted by Knives Illustrated to write what in essence will be 6 articles for them (although this will probably spread out into early 2007). These articles came about as a result of analysis done while updating my business plan. Additionally I have been interviewed for two other articles so far and have a guarantee of one article on my Vanguard knives.

Generally it takes about 10 years to become an "overnight" sensation in custom knives. Note this is not meerly making knives this is advertising yourself and educating your customer base.

No knife maker enjoys the business side as much as making knives. Sure it isn't as fun as making knives. But it sure can make your business more profitable.

Remember: People don't plan to fail...they fail to plan.


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  #21  
Old 01-31-2006, 06:52 PM
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Les, would you run through my list and tell me where I am wrong or right?

As the thread evolves the interpretation for 'hot' is subjective. Hot sellers? Hot interest? Hot variety? One of each, or all.

Great business advice. I sure can use all the help I can learn.

Coop


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  #22  
Old 01-31-2006, 08:17 PM
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Hi Wulf,

The first thing they teach a good trial attorney is never ask a question you don't know the answer to.

No I am not implying that I am a lawyer. What I am is a custom knife professional who's job it is to know who is hot, who is not and why.

As you and Coop have both pointed out "hot" can be very subjective. Quite frankly it really depends on who you ask.

Does a magazine article or even a cover make you hot? IF so for how long?

Does selling out at a show make you hot?

Does being talked about on the Internet make you hot?

Does your knives bringing a premium in the aftermarket make you hot?

What other factors could make you hot?

How about a two year wait?

How about only selling your knives via lottery?

How about because I say so.

Wulf you listed some excellent makers. You obviously have expanded your knowledge of custom knife makers well beyond the Internet Fourms.


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  #23  
Old 02-01-2006, 08:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Les Robertson

Hi J?l,

Did you create a business plan and marketing plan? This would have forced you to identify the market you want to compete in. Shown you your position in that market. Then would have shown you how to optimize your time and money to get the best bang for your advertising dollar.
They don't give you a Small Business Administration loan without one...

Quote:
Most collectors (espeicailly the experienced ones) will only chase a makers work so far. Then they lose interest and move on to the next person. At that point demand for the "hot" makers work cools, premiums paid become less and ultimately there are those who will lose money on the "hot" makers work. Once this happens that knife style and perhaps that maker are dead in the water.
See, I'm still thinking that in the long run... it isn't always good to become "hot." All that trendy advertising & marketing stuff comes back to bite you when the trends shift.

Don't get hot. Stay cool!


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  #24  
Old 02-01-2006, 10:53 AM
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Hi John,

Ok you had a business plan, that is the good news. The bad news is that you could make a living making custom knives. Obviously the business plan had some flaws or needed to be updated more often. I update my plan every 6 months.

You wrote: "See, I'm still thinking that in the long run... it isn't always good to become "hot." All that trendy advertising & marketing stuff comes back to bite you when the trends shift."

You could not be more wrong. Part of what takes a maker to become an overnight sensation in 10 years is "word of mouth". You have to have people talking about you. Magazines, collectors, dealers and even other makers. Getting "hot" brings you to the forefront of more buyers and soldifies the confidence shown by others on your way to becoming hot.

You are correct trends shift and as a professional knife maker you have to make adjustments to these shifts. You know 100 years ago there were hundreds of makers who produced "Buggy Whip". For the previous 100 years Im sure some of these companies had thriving business's. Then Henry Ford and the Model T came along and those companies either adapated and started building something for the horseless carriage or they went broke.

Same thing for Polaroid. Man when I was a kid it was the coolest camera going. Imagine taking a picture waiting 60 seconds and there it is! They saw their market share slipping away and instead of investing in digital technology they tried to compete with it. How did that work out for them.....NOT TO GOOD! They are now bankrupt. Remember for decades this was a Fortune 500 Company.

Kodak is going through the same thing right now, how much film do you think they are selling for those small cameras that people used to carry that had film in them. Film is one of this centuries "Buggy Whips".

An artist can choose to make what they want to make, make it how they want and make them whenever they want. The problem comes when you try to take it commercial. The artist is now a businessman. Now you have to make what the buyer wants. This is where spending years educating the buyers comes into play. You can continue to make what you want, but you have to edcuate the buyers. Failure to do so combined with failure to produce commercially viable knives lead to a failed business. This completes the circle as the artist returns to making what they want and how they want. They just do it as a hobby now. As they now have another full time job to support themselves.

Business for the most part follows one of the laws of nature....Adapt or Die.


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  #25  
Old 02-01-2006, 11:07 AM
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Can a maker be "hot" without conforming to your exacting business model, or are you looking for "Hot" makers with an asterisk and a long list of requirements....seems like the question started so open ended, and seems to be ending with a very exacting set of requirements that you are looking for, with well-thought out justification as to why everything that opposes those requirements is wrong. I am not saying there is anything wrong with that from a business perpective of a knife seller, nor am I insulting or trying to derail what I have found to be a very interesting discussion, but I have quickly lost track of what you are trying to identify between your original post and now a subsequent list of clarifications....I guess defining "hot" is the hardest part...maybe "hot" should instead be "profitable", but does that mean sucess? O-town was once a "hot" boy band.....and at one time was profitable....but thinking like that constrasts starkly to the "10 years to become someone" theory on knives....so...what is "Hot" vs. "profitable" and at what point does hot and profitable become stagnant and something under glass at walmart? Surely gerber is hotter and more profitable than any custom maker if youre only looking at business. They have more people who know about their knives than any custom maler... But knives are a form of art and business, no matter what anyone says, and I think history has proven that profitability and sales have never and will never equate to artistry...does that mean that there are "hot" makers who are innovative and great, but may never become "hot" sellers? I would say so...So i guess defining who is hot or not really depends. Hot for a buyer is totally different than hot from a dealer's perspective. Makers might find some other makers hot, seeing innovative and new ideas, while that maker may not even be selling knives....every advance on every technology and art form has started as a "bad idea" or a "poor plan", and I think that needs to be remembered. A hot maker might not necessarily be the one who will be remembered....so i guess its really a question of interpretation.


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  #26  
Old 02-01-2006, 02:25 PM
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Hi David,

Makers can be hot right now and be nobody two years from now.

I do not have preset criteria for who is hot today, right now, this minute.

What has happened is this has turned into more of a business discussion. Being hot and commercially viable can be inclusive or exclusive of each other.

You brought up Gerber as an example. Apparently you are not aware that Gerber on the brink of bankruptcy was bought by another company (pennies on the dollar). There is no one name Gerber working there any more. If the company was so profitable why did it have to be sold? The main reason, it that it did not adapt to the market conditions of the time.

What the majority of the factories have done are outsource design to custom knife makers. These makers spend years building up a name and/or a particular design and then sell it to the factory. So the factory pays the maker a minimal fee for the design and then pennies on the dollar for each knife sold. The factories sends the maker a 1099 for tax purposes. So the corporation does not pay any taxes on the maker, no Social Security, Medicare or health benefits. This has a very positive effect on the factories bottom line.

Last, when the knife is not longer meeting projected sales, the accounting department lets the CEO know and the knife is dropped from production. The left overs are greatly reduced in priced and are blown out.

They factories have to turn a profit because they have shareholders to answer to. They don't care about the artists or artistic wants and desires. Either they make a profit or the knife is dropped.

The knife is meerly a product that the factory produces. Could be a micro-chip, compressor, etc. Factory knives seldom if ever reach the "Hot" level. Mostly because if a knife gets hot they just make more until the demand is met. Obviously custom knife makers do not have this capability.


David as a maker and an artist you will always come at this from that perspective. Which is natural. As I wrote previously there is nothing wrong with being an artist. However, once you decide you want to sell your "art" then you have entered the commercial market. As such if you want continued success you will have to produce a profit. You are well aware of the costs associated with building a knife you need money to cover those costs. Then if you want to do it for a living you need to make even more profit. At that point you have to become aware of market trends and build what customers want, not always what you want.

David it is your business you should run it as you want. However, you might want to have a chat offline with John about being a knife maker full time.

Guys, this will be the last business post, lets get back to "hot" Makers.


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  #27  
Old 02-01-2006, 02:38 PM
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Thanks Les, I appreciate your response and am glad my post wasn't read as any kind of personal attack or anything. I used gerber as the only example of a knife company I could think of. Pretty ironic that they are going out of business, heh!

So as to not inadvertantly derail, I will not continue dribbling my brain out here! I can certainly see what you mean about there being some kind of line that once crossed, the artistic world and business world MUST meet at some common point. A knifemaker cannot be purely an artist and cannot be purely a businessman. I would think that a "Hot" maker would be someone who has balanced those two facets correctly at any given point in time.

Can't wait to see some more names up here. As new maker, its a course study in what to do right!


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Old 02-01-2006, 08:24 PM
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Hi David,

Everyone runs their business as they see fit. Because it is "your" business. Everything good, bad or indifferent that happens is your resposbility.

Statiscially most business will fail within the first 5 years. These statistics are from the SBA. This is an organization that, as John pointed out, that does require at least an initial business plan. Even with that 75% of the business's they loan money to fail in the first 5 years. Imagine what the rate of failure is for those small business's that are going to try and make a go of it with limited or no business planning.

As you pointed out at some point on the graph the business and artist axis have to meet. Having done this for over 20 years know it has become fairly easy to determine which makers are going to be successful long term and which are not.

The makers I choose to work with have to have more than just talent. I have other criteria as well. Sometimes it takes ordering a knife or two to expose the flaws in their business skills. After that I just stop buying knives from them. Because it is a business for me tough decisions have to be made.

So make what you want to make, how you want to make and when you want to make it. The custom knife market is the most competitive that I have seen it in over 20 years. Just remember, if you don't want to pay attention to business 101 or give the "Buyers" what they want there are 100 more makers ready to step in and take your potential customers.


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  #29  
Old 02-03-2006, 12:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Les Robertson
Hi J?l,

An artist can choose to make what they want to make, make it how they want and make them whenever they want. The problem comes when you try to take it commercial. The artist is now a businessman. Now you have to make what the buyer wants. This is where spending years educating the buyers comes into play. You can continue to make what you want, but you have to edcuate the buyers. Failure to do so combined with failure to produce commercially viable knives lead to a failed business. This completes the circle as the artist returns to making what they want and how they want. They just do it as a hobby now. As they now have another full time job to support themselves.

Business for the most part follows one of the laws of nature....Adapt or Die.
I just realized that I don't want to "...make what the buyer wants," when it comes to blades. A hobby? No, it's a calling. But I've got a degree in jewelry & metalsmithing, and a wide ranging skillset. The jewelry market is simply much more lucrative. My latest business plans included figuring out the profit / labor on blades vs. the same for jewelry, in addition to the relative breadth of the markets & the general demand. No question; unique, handmade blades don't even come close. It's too bad, really.

You *can* make a living with knives. Just not the way I envision it.

PS I only posted here as I noticed that you've started a new thread- I certainly won't post digressively there. And it's "J?l."


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Old 02-03-2006, 01:14 PM
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I agree.

You can look at knifemaking from many different angles. Most makers who are full time and profitable I do not believe sat down and planned their career, they types of knives that were in demand, and then set out to master those types of knives. I would say that most custom makers who are profitable and full time progressed slowly, made a niche for themselves, and MADE their knives in demand based on their individual sytle. After all, style and art really are the only deciding factors in knife buying beyond physical materials choice. You can have the best business plan in the world, best materials, best teachers, best technique, best everything....but if you have crappy style, you will make crappy knives. That means, for me, that art and style come first before a business plan. If no one likes your style, dont bother constructing a plan.

Knifemaking is more like singing, IMHO....there are plenty of good singers....some make it big, fast and furious, and stay there....others are equally as good and go nowhere, and it has little to do with their business plan....now, once you begin selling records, the business really comes into play, but you need to put the cart behind the horse....and I think in knives, the horse driving anything is style, not one's skill in business. A maker with world-class style can learn business, but a businessman cannot learn inherent style...they can only copy.

Adapt or die? Depends what you are adapting to...a maker who ignores his own internal style and just copies what is "hot" in order to turn a profit doesnt really do much for our community....but can be understood if they need to feed the kids.

Just playing devil's advocate here....I think we may be blurring the lines between a business plan for a knife dealer and a business plan for a knife maker. Am I way off in thinking that most profitable makers did not plan to be full time makers until demand went up for their knives enough to warrant it? I'd like to know how many fail who make a plan first, then go fulltime, vs those who go fulltime as a result of overwhelming demand.....


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http://www.schottknives.com

Last edited by TikTock; 02-03-2006 at 01:21 PM.
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