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  #1  
Old 04-03-2002, 11:25 AM
JossDelage
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Commissioning a for-show only bowie - which steel?


I am getting close to commission a bowie that will be for show only, with fossile ivory, nice fittings, and potentially scrimshaw. It's going to be made by a stock removal maker, not a bladesmith. What would people recommend in terms of steel? I tend to be partial to carbon steels, but... My options are:

C-steel;
Stainless (440C, ATS-34);
D2;
Damasteel;
C-steel damascus.

What do people think? This knife will probably not see much use - but I still want something that would work. Les, I'd love to get your opinion on the collectability of those different options....

Thanks,

JD
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  #2  
Old 04-03-2002, 02:19 PM
BCB27
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If you're set on a particular maker, I'd choose something that he prefers to use and knows best, especially if he does his own HT. Ask for his recommendations and ask why. Even if you don't expect to use it, it should still be capable of being used (proper HT).
As much as I like it, personal preference would steer me away from D2 on this type of knife because of its graininess. If you are leaning towards damascus, don't settle for the cheap production stuff.

Brett
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  #3  
Old 04-03-2002, 04:00 PM
Les Robertson
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Hi Joss,

Brett has touched on many valid points.

If you are going to use Ivory, then my recommendation is high quality Damascus. I would recommend you look at Damascus makers like Mike Norris, Devin Thomas or Nick Smolen smoforge@mwt.net

As for the Ivory, I would recommend Fossil Walrus for a hidden tang and Mastodon for a slab handle.

Sounds like you are putting some money into this project. I would recommend you check and see how this makers work as done in the aftermarket.

Good luck with the project.


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  #4  
Old 04-03-2002, 06:20 PM
JossDelage
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Thanks Les! This is very good info. If I reach an agreement with the maker, the piece will be made in South Africa by Rob Brown. With the exchange rate as it is, the price is very good value for the quality. Of course, all I've seen are pics...

So I take it from your post that Damasteel is not esp the best choice?


Cheers,

JD
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  #5  
Old 04-04-2002, 07:01 AM
GavinD1
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Joss

If you are going with Rob Brown you definitely won't be sorry with the workmanship. His work is amongst the best that I have seen and handled.

Gavin
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  #6  
Old 04-04-2002, 09:57 AM
JossDelage
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Well nothing is finalized yet, but we're moving along nicely...

JD
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  #7  
Old 04-04-2002, 01:00 PM
Les Robertson
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Gavin,

Who's work are you specifically comparing Rob's work to?

Also, what in your opinion made it some of the best you have ever seen?

Joss,

Whether it is or is not, Damasteel is viewed by a lot of "in the know" Damascus types as not the best out there.

It is a commerically made product that is less expensive than many other commerically produced Damascus.

Again, as with a lot of things in the construction of custom knives, price is an issue.

I would ask to see the steel before it is shipped to South Africa. Make sure you like the pattern, etc.

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  #8  
Old 04-04-2002, 01:26 PM
Don Cowles
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Les, I have to comment on Damasteel. It is made of a much better grade of steel (RWL34) than either Thomas or Norris damascus (both of which I use and like), and is forged in a similar fashion to produce the available patterns. It is also about the same price. If it is in less demand in the marketplace, that is a result of ignorance rather than inferiority.
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  #9  
Old 04-04-2002, 04:47 PM
JossDelage
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OK, guys, I don't want to scare Les of this thread. I appreciate his input, and at the end of the day, all the decisions are mine - I'm just trying to get opinions from people who are very knowledgeable. If Les is generous enough with his time to educate me, I'll listen carefully...

OK, next round of question on this project.... We're talking about construction, and there's basically 2 choices for the project: narrow tang, or steel-wrapped narrow tang. Narrow tang would mean that everything would be riveted in place, once and for all. Steel-wrapped means that we could use a butt-screw, which would allow me to remove the steel jacket & slabs from the tang. Plus, we could use microscrews (instead of studs) to affix the mastodon ivory, and that would allow me to also remove the slabs from the "jacket / fake tang".

Now, my gut reaction is that I don't like the screw idea. I feel that the risks of getting dirt and moisture inside far outweight the benefits of being able to clean up the knife inside out. My gut feeling, again, would be to drown all that in epoxy, AND rivet the slabs. In addition, I think that microscrews to hold the slabs would be less appealing than gold(en) studs. *BUT* I'm a newbie, and I might not see clearly some of the benefits there are to this construction. What do you guys think?

Also, esthetically, what do people feel about those 2 options?

Thanks,

JD
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  #10  
Old 04-05-2002, 03:59 AM
GavinD1
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Les

Rob has won numerous awards at the South African Knife Makers Guild show where the standard of all knives are very high. He has often won the best of show award as well. Apart from the local shows I have been to Atlanta and Las Vegas, where I have looked at numerous knives from well known makers as well as not so well known, and I feel Rob compares favourably with any of these knife makers.

When it comes to fit and finish on his knives they are flawless. I have yet to see someone mirror polish a knife as well as Rob does. His symmetry of grind lines as well as the sharpness of the grind lines is very well executed. The symmetry of the handles and bolsters or guards on his knives is also excellent. I hope this answers your question.

Gavin

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  #11  
Old 04-05-2002, 10:08 AM
ansoknives
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Damasteel......as Don said....GOOD steel. Very clean and during the years I have used ALOT and have yet to find a single flaw. I see no reason why this should?nt be used on the piece in question. You should give it a try Les. I am curiuos on what basis you have that opinion on it? I presume that when you refer to someone "in the know" you include yourself?
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  #12  
Old 04-05-2002, 10:20 AM
Les Robertson
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Hi Joss,

Im with you, my first reaction is to go with the tapered tang.

A lot of collectors understand and appreciate the skill it takes to produce a tapered tang.

Don,

Joss said this was to be a presentation piece. Damasteel with RWL34 (Robert W. Loveless 34 Scandanavia's version of ATS-34, and yes it is better than what is/was being produced in Japan). The main reason they use this steel is because it is what they have access to, not because it is superior to other steels like BG-42 or 440V.

However, the first Damasteel that came to the states had poor pattern structure. Now it has improved over it's initial introduction to the US.
But, it does not have the pattern availablity that the steels from Devon and Mike do.

Of the commercially producted stainless steels. I like Mike Norri's the best. From what I am told, it works and heat treats consistently and I like the patterns.

Don, with Michael Walker being the only distributor there are not a lot of makers currently using this steel. As such a large population of collectors do not even know it exists.

This will come into play in the aftermarket. Norris and Thomas carry more "weight" (name recognition) than Damasteel does.

As such since the steels are similar you might as well go with the one with better name recognition.

Don, it is good that you brought up Damasteel. Makers obviously bring a wide variety of very usable information to any custom knife conversation.

It is important for collectors to understand the differences in materials, their cost, how they work, etc. It is equally important when a collector such as Joss is going to commission a piece, the capabilities and limitations of both the maker, their equipment and the materials to be used.

As Joss is having a "presentation" knife made that will be expensive. It is best that he explore, as he is doing. What impact his choices of today will have on his knife in tomorrow's market.

This is not to say the is having this made specifically as an investment piece. However, we all have customers who, even though they swore they would never sell their knives....they do.

If a collector want's to commission a knife and understands that it will have little or no re-sale potential in the future. Then that is what they should do. But, this individual will have no illusions as to what his/her knife will be worth.

I think we would all agree well informed clients will make for happy long term investors in custom knives...even if they never make a dime.

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  #13  
Old 04-05-2002, 10:38 AM
JossDelage
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Removable scales / handle?


What about the removable scales / handle idea? What do people think?

Thanks,

JD
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  #14  
Old 04-05-2002, 11:37 AM
J Loose
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Re: Removable scales / handle?


Joss,

Personally I think that a knife of value should have the -potential- for breakdown, but I find screws / threads to be my lesser preferred way of doing it... too likely that it will come undone in use. I have only used threads on a piece where the customer wanted regular access to a hidden chamber in the tang.

I do like the Japanese take... seriously sturdy handle yet it can be broken down... emphasizing the blade itself as an object of value.

I myself like to reference the Northern European sword tradition of peening a through-tang. It isn't coming apart but if you damaged the handle and needed to repair things you could maintain the integrity of the blade itself, and make a new handle. A competent Smith could cold-forge the soft tang and make up for the 2-3 mm lost by filing off the peened section. That is the primary reason I do not solder bolsters; instead preferring to make a good tight fit held by mechanical means... I feel like it emphasizes the blade itself in a subtle but important way. Scales with a full-tang also have this potential also, IMO.

I like to think that some of my blades will last long enough to see someone give them a new handle after I'm long gone... like a famous sword-blade in Viking legend. No handle is going to last a few hundred years completely intact!
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  #15  
Old 04-05-2002, 11:39 AM
primos
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Re: Removable scales / handle?


I see that my post which came after Don's is missing. What's up with that? If my suggestion of materials (all of which I know are among those not held in high regards by Les) was offensive to anyone, then I apologize.

However, I would like to point out that the usage of the "laughing-out-loud" emoticon ( : ) at the end of my post, served to show that the entire post was done in jest and was a joke.

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