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The Business of Knife Making A forum dedicated to all aspects of running, managing and legal operational issues relating to the custom knife making and custom knife selling industry.

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  #1  
Old 02-27-2003, 01:56 PM
papadop171 papadop171 is offline
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Maker's Backlog???

Les, I thought I'd ask you this question since you deal with custom knife makers all the time. WHERE are all the knives going? I'm talking about knives from makers such as EX: Brad Duncan,Jeff Hall, Larry's Chew & Davidson etc. All seem to have quite a wait list. I keep up with your site and the other "biggies" to see an occasional knife come up for sale here and there from makers. Where are all these knives that keep them backlogged going? Are they going to knife shops that don't have a website or can they ALL be going straight into the hands of people directly? I'm just curious because I would think these guys put out quite a few knives each year. Could you please shed some light on this for me. thanks.
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  #2  
Old 02-27-2003, 05:18 PM
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Les Robertson Les Robertson is offline
 
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Hi Papa,

Honestly, most good full-time knife makers are at least 6 months behind. The really sought after ones are anywhere from 1 - 5 years, to not taking orders.

The other major factor that comes into play with "Self-Employed" maker is if they are not working, the knives aren't getting built.

A new girlfriend, a divorce, moving, burn out and becoming ill are all real events that impact the amount of knives a maker can produce.

So, it's quite possible that some of the makers are not producing as many knives as they would like.

As makers become more in demand. Not only their knives but their time comes in more demand. As such, phone calls, emails, web site chat, etc. All start to take time away from knife making.

However, we all only get 24 hours in a day. So time management and business skills will come into play. Those who cannot manage these will produce fewer knives.

Many makers have huge back logs and their knives do go directly to clients who have waited patiently.

Dealers get a fair amount of the more popular makers knives. Generally we identify their work as being very good before the general knife collecting world does. So we get into line first.

I view the custom knife market as Demand and Supply. No I didn't write that wrong.

One last thing, there are many makers out there with little or no back log. These makers are doing very good work. The key for both the maker and the collector is to meet and appreciate what each can do for the other.


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  #3  
Old 02-27-2003, 08:15 PM
whv whv is offline
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just to add a little to les' observations:
there are also makers who will quote a certain (shorter than realistic) wait for fear of losing an order, then are unable to deliver on time because their backlog/business/time management skills/whatever prevents them from doing it.
also, some people are constantly on a design tangent, constantly persuing their latest ideas rather than tending to business.
.
for the most part, however, i agree with les' observations, especially when considering established makers rather than beginners. if you have a desire to own a knife from a certain maker, get on a list - either with the maker or with a dealer who handles his/her work (for example, i have 7 on order- wait time 6 mo to 3 years). if you cannot or would rather not work that way, get to shows that the maker attends and get there early. most makers who pay for a show table will have something for sale, even though they can be sold out in a matter of minutes after the opening. some have even gone to a lottery for the priviledge of buying what they brought
.
lastly, do your homework (as les wisely preaches) and start looking. you may discover the next bang-for-the-buck maker with not only available stock but unbelievable prices!


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  #4  
Old 02-27-2003, 09:12 PM
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Jamey Saunders Jamey Saunders is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by whv
lastly, do your homework (as les wisely preaches) and start looking. you may discover the next bang-for-the-buck maker with not only available stock but unbelievable prices!
Wayne, when I read this part of your post, the first name that flashed into my mind was Steve Vanderkolff.

Papa, take a walk through the Display case. There are some real up-and-comers posting their completions on this site, and there really is the possibility that you will find the next big-time, sought-after, can't-even-get-on-the-waiting-list maker.

And welcome to the CKD Forums.


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  #5  
Old 02-27-2003, 11:50 PM
papadop171 papadop171 is offline
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Talking Thanks for info.

Thanks for all the replies and advice. I am new to the world of custom knives and would like to get an understanding of how the whole buying process works. Do makers cater to dealers, especially dealers that order quantity? Do dealers get "first dibs" or put ahead of individual orders if they were to call a maker and say they need some knives quick? I'd also like to run another scenario by everyone. EX: If someone wanted to order a makers "standard knife" but with his personal choice of bolsters/scales, could he order this from a dealer or do dealers just get whatever the maker sends? And would delivery time be quicker if ordering this through a dealer? I know........ these are a lot of questions.
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  #6  
Old 02-28-2003, 08:45 AM
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Kevin Wilkins Kevin Wilkins is offline
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Also don't forget to distinguish between fulltime and part time makers. I take knifemaking very seriously and it pays some of the bills. But my main profession pays most of the bills and when a large project comes in there, I do it! That's one reason why I dont quote firm delivery dates - with the exception of a birthday and then well in advance - and why I dont take deposits. I think if you take a deposit and promise a knife for a delivery date, you should #### well have the knife ready or give the money back.

Another factor: many makers have certain models they offer. Often times these knives are made in small runs of 10 - 25 knives. Other people make each knife one at a time. That takes longer too.


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  #7  
Old 02-28-2003, 09:10 AM
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SVanderkolff SVanderkolff is offline
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Jamey, I am blushing, literally as I write this. Thanks big time. To answer a few of the questions raised. Those of us just starting mostly build what we want and what sells. I do this as a hobby with hopes of someday turning full time. As of right now I am dealing only with one dealer and would personally love to hear from a buyer who wants one of my styles with their choice of handle material. Hearing from customers is one of the rewards of doing this. I use the dealer to get exposure since that is the biggest thing I need at this point. Since I am part time I will quote a couple of months to complete, using the old adage better to promise late and deliver early. I make all my knives one at a time as opposed to batches although I will often start 2 or 3 knives at the same time but they quickly diverge into separate projects.
I hope that answered some of your questions if not just keep asking.
Thanks
Steve


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  #8  
Old 02-28-2003, 09:38 AM
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Les Robertson Les Robertson is offline
 
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Papa,

I can only speak for the makers I work with.

Yes, you can special order any knife you want directly from the maker. However, depnding on materials required and difficulty you may inccur an additional cost.

The makers I work with underdstand that we are in a business partnership. I provide them with market "intel".

Thousands and thousands of dollars worth of free advertising. This is done in the form of articles I am interviewed for as well as my exclusives that get into several different knife publications.

I take their knives to shows they don't go to. Again saving them thousands in expenses and time away from the shop.

In addition to all of that I buy Tens of Thousands of dollars worth of knives from them each year.

Now, if I call one up and say I need a knife for a very special client, ASAP. Will I get it, yes. However, this is only done very sparingly and usually results in one of my knives in a future order being dropped. Making way for someone on the list to get their knife just a little quicker.

Do dealers get first "dibs" on new knives. Many times yes. This is generally because they are in constant contact with the makers they represent.

Many of the knives I get are the first that the maker has built. This is part of the marketing campaign for a new knife or new material(s) being used. If you get a chance read the book "Anatomy of the Buzz". I incorporate many of the ideas in that book into my marketing strategy.

I learned the lesson in the 80's, before I became a dealer and I was buying 90% of my knives from the dealer Paul Basch.

Full time professional dealers probably no more about what is going on in custom knife market, than any other group out there.

Magazines are generally 4-8 months behind the times on what is actually going on out there.

The Internet, while many times provides up to the minute information. It is largely biased. Perhaps not intentionally.

This occurs when a collector gets a new knife (from what seems to be any maker) gets on the Internet and raves about how it is the most incredible knife he has ever seen, held and owned. In fact it may very well be.

However, the next question should be...How many custom knives do you or have you owned?

Do you only buy knives from one or two makers?

Do these knives hold their value when you try to sell them in the aftermarket?

So before you take someone's opinion on a knife. Find out what their background is. Do they really know what they are talking about? If they do, then take the information you get from them and consider it before you make a purchase.

Custom Knife Makers can generally tell you if the knife is well made. They geneally know who are the successful knife makers. Also, they have first hand knowledge of the particular market they are in. As it should be, as this is their focus.

Other collectors, many times can point you in the right direction. However, more often than not their knowledge is limited to only 200 - 300 makers (what about the other 90% of the makers out there).

Then there are the dealers like me....Full Time. Those who eat, breath and sleep custom knives. Those dealers who buy, sell, trade and handle Millions and Millions of dollars worth of custom knives every year.

The last paragraph is not meant to say that dealers are better people, smarter, etc. It is supposed to say that unlike all the other aforementioned groups....it is our job to know who the most desireable makers are.

There are very few individuals who will buy more custom knives than a full time professional custom knife dealer.

There are none that sell more custom knives than a full time professional custom knife dealer does.

I bring up the phrase "full time professional custom knife dealer". To make sure you understand exactly who I am talking about.

A Full Time Professional Custom Knife Dealer does:

1)Not sell factory knives of any type. It is viturally impossible to know everything about custom knives. So how can a dealer who is spending time with the buying and selling of factory knives truly understand the custom knife market. If they did, they wouldn't be buying factory knives to supplement their income. This person is not a custom knife dealer....they are a knife dealer.

2)Not have another source of income other than the money they make from selling custom knives.

3) Not just attend and walk around the show. They set up at knife shows. This allows the client to ask questions and more importantly handle the knives from makers they may never get to see at shows (remember the business relationship).

4) Not meerly sell a commodity. They are interested in their clients needs. Papa here is a question for you to ask any dealer..."If I buy this knife from you and later on I want to trade it in for a more expensive knife (say $200) more. The knife is in mint condition, will you give me what I paid you for it in trade?" If the answer is no. Then ask them why they are selling a knife that won't hold it's value. If they start into market conditions, the economy, etc. as reasons why they won't give you full value on a trade. Then ask them why they don't know, as a full time professional custom knife dealer will offer you what you paid on a custom knife purchased from that dealer on a trade in.

Papa, I have involved in custom knives for over 19 years. I still learn something new every day.

First rule of custom knife buying...Buy what you like. But don't complain if didn't do you homework and you bought a knife that is over priced and/or has several problem area's.

I did this very thing early on. Until I had a dealer who showed me the value of doing your "homework"!


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  #9  
Old 02-28-2003, 02:22 PM
jbgatlin jbgatlin is offline
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Les, You rock! I learn something everytime you post. Thanks, Brett
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  #10  
Old 02-28-2003, 06:53 PM
papadop171 papadop171 is offline
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Talking Thanks again

Thanks for the GREAT responses everyone. Les, you make some VERY GOOD points about the business. I definitely will remember what you posted. I moved to the Houston area recently and I haven't had "a venue" to handle any custom knives. It seems that all the big shows are in other states. Although I did go to the Spirit of Steel show in Dallas last year. But I went into the show completely "blind" and went straight to Brad Duncan and ordered a knife without taking in everything else in the show. Boy was I a Big Dummy!! Now I have looked at many sites and forums and know there are many great makers that I "ignored".


I have one more question. Do makers put orders on hold so they can make knives for display at the knife shows? I recently emailed a maker and he said he was busy making knives for an upcoming show. I was thinking" how about making a knife for me right now that WILL sell". I know, I need some patience. I guess I've gotten to be like a lot of americans and want everything NOW. #### society!! Ha Ha.

Last edited by papadop171; 02-28-2003 at 06:58 PM.
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Old 03-01-2003, 10:27 AM
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RogerP RogerP is offline
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Les,

Thanks again for a very informative post - I really appreciate the time you take to share your knowledge and experiences with others. Someone new to the world of custom knives would do well to search out Les' posts here and on other forums and read them carefully. I know I did, to my great benefit.

Cheers,

Roger
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  #12  
Old 03-03-2003, 07:57 AM
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Les Robertson Les Robertson is offline
 
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Hi Brett and Roger,

Thank you for taking the time to express your appreciation regarding my posts.

Papa, it is essential that knife makers have knives to take to shows. Essential to their clients/collectors and to the makers themselves.

Makers have to have knives at shows to cover expenses. Here is an example:

I am attending the East Coast Custom Knife Show in Manhattan this weekend.

Easily one of the best shows in the country...also one of the most expensive to do.

Table: $600
Airfair: $285
Hotel Room Show Rate: $207 w/Tax $250 per night (for 3 nights) $750.00
Taxi to and from the airport (including bridge tolls) $60.
Food (at least) $100.

That comes out to: $1,795.

If a maker is working on a 30% profit margin, they have to sell around $6,300 worth of knives to break even!

I have not included the value of the time away from the shop in this equation.

For most table holders to have a "good " show they need to do around $10,000 worth of sales. Don't forget, you have to leave a $300 deposit for your table for the next year before you pack up on Sunday. This makes your total expenses over $2,000.

Suffice to say there are many table holders who do not have the level of expense I do. However, there are others who have even greater expense. There are several international makers who attend the show. With their airfare and extra days in New York. Im sure their expenses are well over $3,000.00

This is reason #1 why makers have to have knives for shows.

Reason #2 and this has many parts to it. As it directly involves the client/collector.

This is my Opinion Makers have a responsiblity to their clients to keep name and their knives in the "public eye".

Makers must be actively involved in maintaining and improving their market share. Doing this will keep the maker in demand or even increase the demand for their knives. This directly benefits both the maker and the client/collector. As demand creates the ability for the maker to ask more money for their knives. It also allows the collector to sell the knives for a profit.

When makers ask me I tell them that in order to maintain/improve their position in a particular market. They should do the following:

1) Attend Shows
2) Advertise
3) Have a web presence (either their own site or work with a dealer who has a well trafficed web site).
4) Work with an established dealer.

With thousands of knife makers out there. They must give themselves a chance to be competitive.

You as a collector want them at as many shows as they can reasonably attend.

Even with the massive impact the Internet has had on the custom knife market. It is still essential that knife makers attend shows. As this, for many, is the only time they can put one of these makers knives in their hand.

So the short answer to your question is "yes". Knife makers need knives for shows. Many view knives for shows as "orders" and put them into their rotation as such.

Professional knife makers, while they hate to turn down your order. Understand that by attending a show and talking to hundreds and possibly thousands of collectors over a 3 day show. Help keep their name out there and there by helping the knife you eventually receive from this maker to hold it's value.

If you going to get into custom knives and you don't have patience to wait a year or two. My advice is to build a good relationship with a custom knife dealer.


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  #13  
Old 03-03-2003, 08:55 AM
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Kevin Wilkins Kevin Wilkins is offline
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Hi Les,

thanks for laying the numbers out in black and white. It's good for buyers to understand what it costs to make knive and go to shows. I do about two shows a year right now because thats all I can manage. I'd like to to do 3-4 shows and I'm working on it!

A few points, don't forget the cost of drinks!! ;-)

And if you can eat in NYC on the weekend for $100 you will be getting mighty tired of hotdogs!! ;-)


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