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  #1  
Old 08-24-2001, 06:31 PM
primos
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Beginners, price vs value, etc.


Les,
This thread is to pick up where we were when I got you sidetracked on the Mokume thread.

Back to the confused maker. I was following you and feeling better, then I read something else that made my heart sink. When you mentioned seeing a maker with a $165 hunter with wood, you keep walking, as the materials indicate beginner, however the price does not. And, when you look at a makers work you look for consistency in the price vs value.

Now I'm starting to get nervous. I'm wondering if I have been cheating people. I'm not a well known maker (obviously). I have not marketed myself because I was making knives quite simply because I enjoy it, and I enjoy spending time with other makers at places like the ABS Hammer-ins.

A couple of years ago I was told by enough people that I wasn't charging enough for my knives, that I decided to bump the price and see what happened. The knives kept selling. Interestingly enough, it seemed that they sold better at the higher price. The only thing I can think of to explain what I'm worried about is to just open up, show you a knife, and mention the price.

Of all the knives I've made, one's similar to the one below were my bread and butter.



We have here a hunter forged from 1084 steel. The blade length is approximately 4". It has a nickel silver guard, followed by alternating spacers of brass and copper. The handle is fiddleback (curly) maple, and it is secured with nickel silver pins.

The knife was offered with a custom sheath and a padded zippered pouch for off-season storage. For blades that I've shipped out, I paid all shipping and insurance. I've asked $275.00, and been getting it. The fellow who bought the first one was from Texas and sent it to a friend in Canada. He called me a week after buying it and asked me to make another one for him. Shortly after that I had a lady buy one to give her husband for his birthday. Three weeks later the lady called me and said her husband wanted me to make two more. He was going to give them to business associates. It went on like this for a while.

The whole point being, these folks seemed perfectly satisfied with the $275.00 price. Almost everyone who bought one of this style ended up coming back and buying at least one more. Have I cheated these people? I know the saying about getting what the market will bare, but realistically, have I been unfair? Nobody who has bought one of these was doing it for an investment. They just liked the knife. These have been busy in the woods, not sitting in a display case.


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  #2  
Old 08-24-2001, 06:56 PM
Les Robertson
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Terry,

First let me say, the knife in that picture is not that of a beginner. So don't get nervous.

Also, I said brass and wood for $165, not just wood.

Second, time making knives many times has nothing to do with skill. I have seen new makers ( 1-3 years) doing incredible work. Take Dogman and Mike Snody for instance.

I have seen makers who have been at it for 10 years, still turning out sub-standard work.

When I speak of the aftermarket I speak in generalities. As the saying goes, the race does not always go to the swiftest....but that is the way to bet!

As for your knives not being collectabiles, don't sell yourself short. When those buyers come back to get a second knife....how many to you think they can use at a time skinning that deer?

Terry, you work looks very good. Your price may be pushing the top end for that particular knife. However, you throw in a lot of extras with it.

It is apparent to me, you take your work and business very seriously. You strive to provide a quality product at what you feel is a fair price. Since you are selling them, aparantly your buyers feel you are being fair as well.

Terry, from what you are telling me and what I can see. You are well within the lines. Just continue to keep your name in front of the public and always look for new challanges in materials.

BTW, are you going to the SOS Show in Mesquite?

Les


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  #3  
Old 08-24-2001, 07:02 PM
BCB27
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Terry,

I think it is a matter of opinion. The knives that Les chooses to represent, represent him and his interests, IMO.
I just attended my first show recently, and did very well (IMO) selling knives handled almost exclusively in wood. Guess what kind of knife sold the quickest? It was a wood handled hunter, and the buyer couldn't seem happier with the $185 asking price. What can I say, though, I am a beginner. Maybe that customer is just uninformed or uninitiated, but that doesn't explain the well-known collector buying one of my knives.
If you are selling what you like to make, you should keep doing it. You make a fine looking knife, IMO.

Brett
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  #4  
Old 08-24-2001, 08:57 PM
Les Robertson
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Hi Brett,

Actually, my interest is in several categories of knives.

For instance, do you realize that I do not have one folder in my personal collection.

Also, during my first 8 years as a dealer you could have counted the number of folding knives I sold on one hand.

My collection features knives in Damascus, Blued O-1 hardware, 440C, ATS-34, 3V, D-2. I also have one knife with nickel silver hardware and another with brass! Yes, there I said it I have more than one knife in my personal collection with brass hardware. The maker is Rod Chappel.

Many of the makers I represent have piqued my main interest in a custom knife maker....Versatility.

Take Joel Chamblin for instance, Joel makes

Multi-blade folders
Damascus folders
Presentation folders
Tactical Folders
Hunters

He works, 440C, ATS-34, BG-42, 440V, 420V, Damascus and D-2.

He works, Micarta, Wood, G-10, Sheep Horn, Buffalo Horn, Stag, Pearl, Abalone, Mastodon Ivory, Mammoth Ivory and Fossil Walrus Ivory.

David Broadwell, while he does not make multi-blades, in addtion to what Joel does, he makes the following:

Fighters
Sub-Hilt Fighters
Boot Fighters
Bowies
Art Daggers

In addition to the materials that Joel works, David works Stone (Jade, Lapis Lazuli, Tigers Eye (both brown and blue to name a few), Fossil Dino Bone.

He is also quite an accomplished carver of both metal and stone and ivory.

One other thing, David is the best Sub-Hilt Fighter maker in the World!

Lets not forget John W. Smith.

I feel John is one o f the Top 5 Folder makers in the world!

He makes his own Damascus, carves pearl, Ivory and stone, make his own gold screws and thumb studs. Does his own engraving and gold inlay. In addition he makes awesome automatics and has made some incredible daggers!

You know what he brought to the Guild Show this year.....tactical folders.

Versatility, that is what I look for.

While it is true that I am thought of primarily as a Tactical Knife Dealer. If you were to travel back in time to 9 years ago, I was one of the worlds foremost dealers in Damascus and Presentation Fighters, Sub-Hilt Fighters and Bowies. You would not have seen a folder or a tactical knife on my table.

So do not be fooled by what you see today.

What I have always represented, is versatilty, quality, value and quality. Not only in the knives but in the men and women who have and continue to make these knives for me.

I agree with you that I am opinionated about the styles, materials and makers I represent. That is precisely one of the main reasons my clients trust my judgement.

Brett, Im sure you would agree with me that every collector out there would prefer that every dealer in the US stand behind the products they represent with a 100% purchase price guarantee when they are ready to trade in their knife towards a more expensive knife.

Brett, here is my question to you. Why don't they?

To Terry and the other makers out there reading this. Brett is 100% correct. If something is working for you and you are happy with it. Then stick with it.

But as Rade points out, it's best to keep an open mind.

Les


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  #5  
Old 08-24-2001, 09:19 PM
primos
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I appreciate the kind words from both Les and Brett.

Les, I don't see you as a mean old bear. You know your stuff and you have the success to prove it. I appreciate all the info. I noticed that you don't act like a "know-it-all". You will quickly say you made a mistake (if you have) and not make excuses.

You're now on my "Elite" list. That means that when you speak, I'll stop, listen, and take notes.

If I don't have to work, I'd like to be at the SOS show. Maybe I'll see you there. Just in case, bring an extra book.

Oh yeah, I started another thread for the Mokume-Gane info. We need to get Jonathan Loose over there. He knows a lot about it.
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  #6  
Old 08-24-2001, 10:03 PM
BCB27
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Les,

I appreciate the well thought out reply. My comments were meant to suggest that you represent a 'concensus' of what is popular. I agree that you satisfy the needs of a large array of buyers, but my point was that there is a diverse enough market to accomodate makers like Terry and I who sometimes 'break the rules'.
Dealers should stand behind the product where quality is concerned, much as a maker should. Where you go beyond that, you must limit your market in order to back up your product. While it is working for you, and undoubtedly would work for others, it will not work for everyone. To do so would leave a certain segment of the market unrepresented, and a portion of that segment will likely arrive in your arena one day.
Just my thoughts.

Brett
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  #7  
Old 08-27-2001, 11:57 AM
JerryO13
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Terry, I feel your price is well within the "zone" for the knife you offer. What everyone failed to mention is that it is a "forged" knife and that can easily add $100 to the value of the knife. Also there is something very coherent about that design, I'd have to think about it to give you a specific reason why, but to my eye that knife is just "right" design wise. This one and the smaller version (slimline hunter) you make are my favorites among the designs you show on your website.
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  #8  
Old 08-27-2001, 03:35 PM
primos
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Thank you for the kind words Jerry.

Man, I've got to get rid of the Gallery section of my site, or at least redo it. Those blades are not indicative of what I do now. Most of them scream "beginner". They were just blades that had a special meaning to me for one reason or another.

For example, the slimline hunter that you mentioned, which is in the Gallery section, was about my second forged blade. I was a stock remover and didn't get into forging knives until about 1996.

The slimline hunter was done at the Bladesmithing school back then under the watchful eye of Jerry Fisk. That one holds a special place in my heart and probably means about as much to me as outright owning a Fisk made knife. Since he was guiding me along the way and showing me how he does things, it's like we made it together. In fact, he did one side of the handle and guard, then handed it back to me and told me to make the other side match.

I got close, but when you study the knife you can see one side looks pretty good and the other side is absolutely perfect. You can guess which one of us did the perfect side. That one is mine and won't ever be sold.

So as not to cause confusion, the blade pictured above is of my own design and is more indicative of what I do now. But still, it is based on techniques and design theory taught to me by Jerry.

Sorry for being so long winded. You just brought back some great memories.
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