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  #16  
Old 01-26-2002, 12:55 PM
Coop747
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Re: Accumulators vs. Collectors?


Les wrote in response to jar:

"You sound like you are more of the accumulater type. One who buys things, not because there is a reason for the purchase. But because they just like it, or want to have something like it."

And a 'Collector' is defined by only by someone whose primary concern is the return value of their collections? Tsk tsk.....

I would suggest you have sold hundreds of thousands of $$$ over the years off of accumulators (like me), who have no particular or legitimate reason for a purchase. (Especially if it is not going to be used, but rather for display in my Accumulation).

Your tone degrading them as if they are a substandard or unknowledgable person involved in their passion is shameful. Sure, Mr. Accumulator in the seminar wasn't brilliant or going to make fortunes back. He didn't care.

My accumulation has given me so much fun and made me so many good friends (including you!), that it has been WELL worth the perceived loss.

Don't bite the hand that feeds you, regardless if they are not of the same mindset.

Coop

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  #17  
Old 01-26-2002, 04:59 PM
Les Robertson
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Collector's Vs. Accumulator's


Coop,

Did you read the post I wrote? Where did I say:

Quote "And a 'Collector' is defined by only by someone whose primary concern is the return value of their collections?"

My point is, as it always has been that you should do your homework. I don't care if you are a collector, accumulator, casual buyer, etc.

Jar stated that unlike those who spent hours doing research and have disposable income. He did not have disposable income and felt it wasn't necessary to do any homework. See something and buy it.

Personally, if I had little disposable income, I would be inclined to research something even more. As I would probably be forced to use this item for a longer duration. As opposed to someone who had a lot of disposable income and could make a mistake and simply by another model or item.

This is where my confusion lies.

Very few people I know collect knives as part of their investment portfolio. This is not to say that you could not.

Actually understanding any collectible market will afford you the opportunity to make money. Sometimes at a higher return than the stock market will give. Especially in an economy like this.

That is why I am always amazed at threads like this that take a turn that "making money with knives is a bad thing".

Coop, I have to tell you, this simply does not make sense to me.

It's like I asked the guys at the seminar.

Why would you buy a knife that is going to lose value?

Why would you reward a maker for charging an inflated price for their knife?

If you have little disposable income, it is even more important that you do not by an inferior knife at a inflated price.

The only reason people do this is they haven't done their homework.

Coop, questions:

If you put $1,000 into the stock market do you expect to make money or did you just do it for the thrill of buying stock?

If you put $1,000 into a CD at the bank, did you do it because you wanted to make money or just wanted to know what it was like to have a CD?

Given the choice between buying two knives of similar quality wouldn't you prefer to buy the one that will hold it's value over the other one that may lose 25-50% of it's value?

Coop I am not trying to bite the hand that feeds me, quite the opposite. I try to keep money in the hands of those who feed me.

Coop, as you well know. I spend a lot of time with my clients, trying to help them get the most for their money. It is why I carry the product mix that I do. The makers I represent are not on my site or table by accident.

Quite frankly I am in a position that I could get knives from just about any maker I wanted to. So the question has to be asked, why do I carry the makers I do?

Simply put, I feel that the makers I represent provide exceptional quality for the money. Additionally, the majority of these makers work are sought after in the aftermarket. These makers typically have a year or more wait.

How do I know which makers to buy? In some cases the collectors show me and in others I show the collectors.

Either way I think you will agree it is a win-win for both the client and myself...as it should be.

Coop, the other part of this equation is what you and most makers never experience. Those who are looking to sell their knives and come to me, expecting me to pay them full price or close to full price.

It is at that time I get the wonderful experience of explainig to them why their knives are not worth that kind of money. I point out the bad grinds, point out how you can tell the maker was left handed. Show them the gaps between material and bolsters, etc.

Are these people then upset with the maker for charging more than the knife was worth? No.

Are these people upset with themselves for buying a inferior knife at an inflated price? No.

They are upset with me, the slimy dealer trying to grind them to get a better price.

Consequently, I have gone on record saying I will not carry certain knives, that certain knives are not custom knives and that I am not interested in certain materials on knives.

I have done this not to cause controversy as some people think. But to inform people of my opinions, so they will not bring me their knives that fit into these categories and try to sell them to me.

Finally, every thing I say and write is my opinion. I, as is everyone else is entitled to their opinion.

While I am not always correct, there is a reason that Makers, Collectors, other Dealers and the editor of the the three major knife magazines seek my opinon.


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  #18  
Old 01-26-2002, 05:05 PM
AbelKnives
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Re: Accumulators vs. Collectors?


First of all, i'm a believer that people can do what they set their minds to. I know for me personally, I am the first to point out that I am only 15 and have never even bought a custom knife. and i acknowledge that probably everyone- especially you Les know way more about custom knives than me. but in any case i will share my opinion. I have been looking for a custom knife recently, i have very little money which makes me look epecially careful for the knife i buy although, the one thing that is not a concern for me is return if i sell it again.
just my two cents
and please do not be offended, this is just my opinion
i am in no way saying i am right about this
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  #19  
Old 01-26-2002, 07:22 PM
Les Robertson
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Opinions


Hi Abel,

I am never offended with anyone's opinion. When I first started buying custom knives, I bought them for a specific purpose. That was to help me in the field while I was in the Army.

I did as much research as I could at the time. This was back in the old days, before the Internet, before PC's.

As such, I bought some good knives and more times than not, I bought a knife that did not live up to my expectations.

Unlike today, the places you could sell or trade a knife were much more limited. As such, I usually lost a great deal of the knives value when I sold or traded it. That happened regularly until I got tired of it.

As a Second Lieutinent at the time, disposable income was at a premium. So I forced myself to stop buying knives on whim's, or because I like the maker, or because I thought the knife looked good, or....etc.

I sent away for over 200 catalogs as they came in I poured over the information. I went to shows and asked questions, read all of the knife magazines, spent countless hours with the Knives Annual series. Yes Jar, I was one of those people who spent hours doing research, but I did not have alot of disposable income.

I found I started buying fewer knives, but knives that when I went to sell them held their value or went up a little. It was then I decided to become a dealer, not to make money. But simply to obtain more and better knives through re-sale or trading. A similar mind set to the majority of those who sell on the Forums today.

I probably didn't make a dime for the first couple of years. Then reality set in, show expenses, shipping, long distance bills, etc. This forced me to do even more research.

While I was in Graduate School getting my MBA. Every course that would allow me to, all the research for the course project or term paper was done on my business.

I will tell you that many of my ideas concerning the buying and selling of custom knives came from the research that I did during Grad School.

An MBA and 15 years of being a custom knife dealer doesn't make me smarter than any one. It just makes me more educated about the realities of custom knife aftermarket than most people in custom knives.

Just as the artisians in custom knives (makers, engravers, scrinshanders, leather workers, etc.) hone their craft year after year.

I continously hone my skills. Marketing, Sales, Production Management, Operations Management, Chief Financial Officer, etc. These skills are improved each year.

The result is a better business model.

At the core, I am still a collector. Hence the Vanguard series. I wanted to work with several makers I respect and create several new custom knives.

As always guys, buy what you like.


I know I hold a minority opinon that custom knives should retain their value.
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  #20  
Old 01-26-2002, 08:15 PM
AbelKnives
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Re:Opinions


I can see your point of veiw Les, and i can understand why you feel that custom knives should hold their value. If I bought a Knife that i might consider selling in the future i would definetly want to make sure it held its value. I kind of like to be careful when I post on matters that are sided, i have seen people get burned really bad and i don't want to cause any fights or bitterness. and even though dealers make their money off other people's work, they have to develop lots of skills too, ones that can be even more difficcult to learn than keeping your grind even yeah, i'm glad to know that your not offended at anyone's opinion. That's nice to know.
Mike
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  #21  
Old 01-26-2002, 10:23 PM
DC KNIVES
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Re: Re:Opinions


This has been a very interesting topic with good points on both sides.As you can tell from that I tend to be somewhere near the middle on this.
As a maker, I will seekout Les for his expertise and experience on what is truly hot or going to be hot.I know that he is in a better position to see this than I.He would be broke if he didn't know.It is up to me to use this info or not.
As a maker, I am in about the same price range as RW and I think a 70 knife backlog is good.Sure he will have some cancelled,that's human nature, but he will also pay some bills.While he might not be a "X" maker now, he has the talent to become one IMHO.
I see myself as a user maker and sell very few knives to collectors.Most are to blue collar working stiffs that use and abuse them and at this time that is ok,since I do this part-time.Now if I was to go full-time I am sure that I would rethink this and start making more collectable style knives.
As for collectors,I see 3 types.
One that buys what he likes and will never part with it and will hand it down to the kids.
One that buys what he likes or knows is a good value,trades up,trades out,or sells hopefully for a profit.
One that I think most fall in is a combination of the two.

I apologize now if I ruffled anyones feathers as it was not my intent.I have a great deal of respect for each and every one of you.Dave
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  #22  
Old 01-27-2002, 08:52 AM
jar
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Re: Re:Opinions


Les

I think if you will re-read my postings, I never mentioned whim, or that I don't research my purchases. Indeed, the fact that I am here might suggest just the opposite. If you'll look, I stated that when I have an idea of something that I want, I look to find those that have done similar work in the past, contact them and see who can make what I want within my budget.

As to buying on a whim, not quite sure what you mean by that. I buy things for aesthetic or practical reasons. This extends to firearms, knives, cars, clothes, watches, fountain pens...

However, I do not confuse reputation with reality. The Map is not The Territory. A good example from the area of fountain pens might be Mont Blanc. They have created a mistique about their quality that is totally undeserved. Frankly, they are simply not up to the standards of many other fountain pens, most of which cost far less than the Mont Blancs.

I invest in stocks and bonds. I collect fountain pens, knives and firearms. Each piece in my collections must be functional. I do not buy one that I cannot use. I have sold a few firearms, those that would not function, and I did lose money on those sales. I have not sold a knife (have given some as gifts) or a fountain pen. I never expect that my collections will have substancial value nor do I consider them an asset (except that as functional tools I get to enjoy using them).

I do not reward folks for over charging me. In fact, should I believe that I did not receive adequate value for my money, I would simply not buy from that source again. So far my exxperience has been that I have gotten more value than expected.

And let's not get into a competition aboout number of publications. I just have a feeling that given the makeup of folks visiting this board, you'd lose
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  #23  
Old 01-27-2002, 09:53 AM
JamieK
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Re: Re:Opinions


Very interesting thread with varying viewpoints from both sides of the fence.

Let me say first of all that in my all too few dealings with Les, the outcome has been spectacular and just as he said it would be. The knives I purchased were a great value, from a stellar maker and have certainly increased in value, much in part due to the very limited numbers produced and the exceptional price they were offered at. I chose to get rid of one of them and easily got my dollar back. The other will surely continue to increase in value but I am afraid it will forever stay in my possession. So the value factor is neglegible as I just love the knife regardless of it's monetary value. Still a nice feeling to own something unique and that so many others find desirable. Thanks Les!

On the other hand, if I am seeking out something of my design, for either using or collecting, I will go where the winds take me. I find R.W. offers an extremely lot of knife for the money. Good performance, design and finish work. I have one knife from Ron, one on the way, one ordered and am currently working on a design for 2 others. All will be users but 1. I must admit that one of them is nothing more than one of Ron's cute little mini-aikuchi's. But you know that differentially heat treated O-1, maroon same, black silk cord wrap and a menuki normally would cost me a whole lot more than $75! This is a heck of a price for a knife with these features and I don't expect it to ever increase in value. Don't care. It will have one thing that alot of big name maker's knives never will, use. Sometimes the real value of a knife is what you do with it.

If all anyone ever did was to buy the knives from maker XXX, where would all the up-and-comers get the experience and learn to produce truly quality blades? Somewhere along the lines someone took a chance on one of those first Bill Moran blades. I am sure tha Bob Loveless sold a few to people who just liked the looks of his knives with no concern for investment. Let us not forget that no one was born into this "maker XXX" position, they all had to learn the ropes and bust their ass to get where they are today. I for one will continue to support and encourage the new kids on the block and who knows, maybe someday that Camp Bowie (one of the first 10 knives he made) I have from Matt Lamey will be prized by others than myself.

Sometimes you may make a better investment, but don't limit yourself to knives from the big names, you just might miss out on one of your alltime favorites!
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  #24  
Old 01-27-2002, 12:23 PM
Les Robertson
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More Opinions


Jar,

I have to say, for a guy with no disposable income, you sure have a lot of stuff!

RW, best of luck.

To everyone else, thank you for posting in this thread. Alot of good points have been made.

Buy what you like and enjoy your collections.

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  #25  
Old 01-27-2002, 07:00 PM
Roger Gregory
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Re: More Opinions


That has to be the shortest ever Les Robertson post in a thread discussing custom knives....


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  #26  
Old 01-27-2002, 09:42 PM
Les Robertson
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Bang for the Buck


Jamie,

I re-read your post. I am not saying to only buy knives from XXX makers. I didn't know porno guys made knives.

Yes, at one time everyone is no one. I can remember several prominate makers telling me "Go away kid, your no dealer".

Most of the makers I buy from now I met when they were not well known. Guys like Carson, Broadwell and Simonich I have been buying knives from for over 13years. I met John W. Smith at the very first knife show he ever attended.

Actually, the best time to buy from makers is when they are producing excellent work, charging more than a fair price and have yet to have become an overnight sensation. Like when I met RJ Martin...for the second time. He had 4 Japanese Tacticals on his table. All better then Phil Hartsfield and more than half the price. I bought all 4. That was 8 years ago. At the Guild Show 6 years ago sitting up until 3am talking knives with Larry Chew. People didn't even know Larry made knives at that time.

I have been very fortunate to meet a lot of makers on the way up. It's not always easy to pick these guys. It is not always easy for them to maintain their "up and coming" maker status. You brought up Matt Lamey. Matt has incredible potential, but his duty to his country is slowing that progress down.

Some times you get lucky and buy from the right makers. Other times, you can just look at the work and tell.

For myself I try and work with World Class makers, Established makers, Up and Coming Makers, and a few New Makers I keep my eye on. The one thing they all have in common is that they are all Bang for the Buck makers.!

Roger, I hope this a response length more to your liking.

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  #27  
Old 01-28-2002, 05:11 AM
jar
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Re: Bang for the Buck


Les said
Quote:
For myself I try and work with World Class makers, Established makers, Up and Coming Makers, and a few New Makers I keep my eye on. The one thing they all have in common is that they are all Bang for the Buck makers.!
I couldn't agree more. Value is THE key ingediant as far as I'm concerened.
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  #28  
Old 01-28-2002, 08:30 PM
AbelKnives
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Bang for the buck


I'll second that
Jar
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  #29  
Old 02-13-2002, 04:28 PM
KWM
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For me what is hot are small hunters, neck knives and integrals. The hot steel seems to be CPM S30V. The new supper Stainless.
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