First Damascus Blade questions

[WynnKnives]

For years I've been gnawing at the bit to make a damascus knife, well I finally coughed up the cash and got enough for two small folding blades. I etched the first one tonight and came up with some questions.

This is stainless damascus, I used Ferric Chloride and distilled water 1:2, for a 12 minute dip followed by 3 minutes. I definitely etched it long enough I can feel the etch.... almost too long I feel.

Damascus.jpg


1. My dark areas didn't seem to be as dark as I had expected, looking at a picture they show up darker than in person. I know right after the etch all that carbon is hanging out and looks much darker then when you clean it all off. But am I expecting too much, is this just how it is?

2. I ended up with a couple of greyish lines, I'm assuming it has something to do with the thickness between layers. The bolder the line the less it will hold that dark color? How is that avoided? *Edit* I studied it a bit and realized that the grey lines where the same on both sides, is this caused by the steel I'm assuming now, a trait picked up in the forging that I can't do anything about?

3. I've heard of some guys using a bake on laquer after etching, I'm assuming like a Gun Kote? Which leads to a couple questions, holding the blade at 325 for an hour, I know its riding the edge for the temper temperature but does it make a difference? And does the baked coating sand off the peaks easily without coming out of the etched areas?

4. How do I know if I etched it too long, will the color ever stop being good looking or does it just get too deep and thats it?

There may be more questions that I'm just not remembering.... but if anything I did could use tweaked for whatever reason I'm all ears.

[AUBE]

I have very little practice etching damascus, but a fair amount with etching in general (I etch patterns into steel).

#1 I've found to get a deeper color use full strength ferric and dip for about 30 seconds, pull it out then wipe off the oxides with something non abrasive like a sponge or cloth. Then repeat until its dark.

In my etchings this will get the steel several shades darker in most cases. This process is only for coloring and will need to be done after your longer dip which achieves the depth.

#2 Not sure exactly what you mean but often there will be several shades of darkness in a piece of damascus. This is usually where the 2 alloys meet. It is more pronounced in damascus that has been over heated when welding (often the edges where the two alloys meet will look "fuzzy").

#3 As long as you are below the temper temperature that is fine. If you temper at 400 you can then bake it at 395 with no changes in temper. The peaks will wear the coating off sooner than the valleys. But thats ok because its usually the valleys that hold the darker color and are more likely to corrode. In our high carbon etchings we will apply lacquer then buff over it which gives it a glossy look and seals the valleys from corroding.

#4 Long etches are for achieving depth of etch. Short cycles of etching are more for color. At least thats my experience. If you etch too long you may develop pitting...this will be more likely to happen if you don't clean the oxides off the blade from time to time or agitate the etching solution while etching.

The type of steel and temper of the steel (harder steel etches darker) are the main determining factors in how deep the color gets.

[Ray Rogers]

First of all, ask the person who made the damascus for etching recommendations, they usually have a preferred method. From looking at your picture, I'd guess you etched too long. Stainless damascus, in my limited experience, tends to lots of shades of grey but hardly ever a real black. Metal prep before etching has a significant effect on the end result. Several short etches are generally better than one long one. Etch, wash, etch again until you get the desired color. Some sources suggest boiling the blade after etching to 'set' the color. Experimentation is the name of the game.

There, that's just about everything I know about etching damascus ....

[argel55]

Not very many people I know start off etching stainless damascus with ferric to start. Muratic acid to etch then the ferric to help color it.

[WynnKnives]

Thanks guys, gave me some ideas to try, I sanded with 2000 grit and cleaned it up a little, I think that its something to do with the metal as Ray said the more I look at it. I took it to a mirror polish before I etched it so i know the finish was good.

Ill just have to play with it and see what I can do I suppose.

[Ed Caffrey]

I saw this kinda late, but will add my input.... first NEVER mirror finish a damascus blade prior to etching...if you do so, often times the etch will come out lookng "smeared". This is actually a product of the buff "grabbing" some of the softer layers in the mix and "dragging" them in the direction of the buffer rotation.
This might sound counter-intuitive, but for most damascus your best etch will be achieved at no more than a 1200 hand rubbed finish, in many cases I will only go to 600-800 grit. The larger and more open the pattern, the finer in grit you want to go...finer, tighter patterns will etch best when you stop at the 600-800 range.

The other things I noticed right off the bat is that you didn't mask the pivot area or other "contact" areas of the blade....if this is a liner lock, that means that the action is going to be very rough, and if I detent ball is used, you will feel/hear it "bouncing" across the layers throughout it's range of motion.

I'm sure different makers do it different ways, but the etch is ALWAYS the LAST thing I do on a damascus folder blade. I already have the detent set, it's travel path masked, as well as the pivot area and any are where other parts such as where washers make contact.

I've heard of some guys using a bake on laquer after etching, I'm assuming like a Gun Kote? Which leads to a couple questions, holding the blade at 325 for an hour, I know its riding the edge for the temper temperature but does it make a difference? And does the baked coating sand off the peaks easily without coming out of the etched areas?

Baking lacquer will be tough to use on that blade, because the pattern is so large/open. Successfully using baking lacquer depends mainly on two things...the depth of the etch, and tightness of the pattern. Judging from the pic, you'd very likely "wipe out" at least patches of the baking lacquer in that "gray line" area as it's pretty large and open.

As for the baking process harming the blade's temper, it's very unlikely. Temper action STARTS at 350F, since you'll only go to 325F with the baking lacquer, no worries.

How do I know if I etched it too long, will the color ever stop being good looking or does it just get too deep and thats it?

Everybody has their own preferred "depth of etch".....as long as you don't start seeing little pits, you're OK..... there is a "break even" point in etching where it gets as good as it's going to, and then anything beyond that is counter-productive. There is no "magic bullet" to determine exactly how long that is...it varies from material type to material type, with experience being the only real teacher.

[WynnKnives]

Originally Posted by Ed Caffrey

I saw this kinda late, but will add my input.... first NEVER mirror finish a damascus blade prior to etching...if you do so, often times the etch will come out lookng "smeared". This is actually a product of the buff "grabbing" some of the softer layers in the mix and "dragging" them in the direction of the buffer rotation.
This might sound counter-intuitive, but for most damascus your best etch will be achieved at no more than a 1200 hand rubbed finish, in many cases I will only go to 600-800 grit. The larger and more open the pattern, the finer in grit you want to go...finer, tighter patterns will etch best when you stop at the 600-800 range.

hmm, I noticed many others did this the same, but I followed the directions sent with the steel, was instructed to mirror polish. But will try it next time his way for sure.

The other things I noticed right off the bat is that you didn't mask the pivot area or other "contact" areas of the blade....if this is a liner lock, that means that the action is going to be very rough, and if I detent ball is used, you will feel/hear it "bouncing" across the layers throughout it's range of motion.


I'm sure different makers do it different ways, but the etch is ALWAYS the LAST thing I do on a damascus folder blade. I already have the detent set, it's travel path masked, as well as the pivot area and any are where other parts such as where washers make contact.

The pivot area I put in wax to avoid etching the actual pivot hole, but didn't think about the detent/lock, I will have to do something about that if it proves to be a problem. I've read that some used a sharpie to mask areas, does this work? What do you use?

Baking lacquer will be tough to use on that blade, because the pattern is so large/open. Successfully using baking lacquer depends mainly on two things...the depth of the etch, and tightness of the pattern. Judging from the pic, you'd very likely "wipe out" at least patches of the baking lacquer in that "gray line" area as it's pretty large and open.

As for the baking process harming the blade's temper, it's very unlikely. Temper action STARTS at 350F, since you'll only go to 325F with the baking lacquer, no worries.


Everybody has their own preferred "depth of etch".....as long as you don't start seeing little pits, you're OK..... there is a "break even" point in etching where it gets as good as it's going to, and then anything beyond that is counter-productive. There is no "magic bullet" to determine exactly how long that is...it varies from material type to material type, with experience being the only real teacher.

This is also what i was assuming but its good to hear confirmation from a reputable source.


I did my second blade at 3 cycles of 3 min each and am much more pleased with the outcome. Definitely somethings I am going to have to change though.

Thanks all for your help again

[AUBE]

Originally Posted by WynnKnives

I've read that some used a sharpie to mask areas, does this work? What do you use?

I wouldn't recommend a Sharpie. They work for really light etches but at a certain point the acid eats through and you get pitting. The coating is just too thin. Theres many things people use...wax,grease,nail polish,paints, etc. I prefer to not use wax/grease because it contaminates the solution much faster than paint.

Some paints work really well at masking, some paints will actually make the area where the paint is etch even faster (sounds strange doesn't it? I found this out by accident)

One thing that works well for my is vinyl that graphic shops use. They give away scraps for free and it can hold up through a 2hour etch, and contamination of the bath is minimal. Also some clear packing tape works well.

Just experiment on scrap steel to see what works for you.

[WynnKnives]

Didn't see this response until now, thanks for the ideas... Looks like knife making at its best to come, experimentation once again