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The Newbies Arena Are you new to knife making? Here is all the help you will need.

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  #1  
Old 04-24-2015, 01:56 PM
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Grayshadow95 Grayshadow95 is offline
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blade advice

I have made a few knives using purchased blades, both standard production ones from a couple knife maker suppliers and ones forged by others, but I have been wanting to try the next step and make my own blades.

Not wanting to invest a lot of money into something that I wasn't certain I would enjoy or be able to continue. Due to a shoulder injury and surgery, forging blades is very likely not an option. Consequently I have procrastinated until I stumbled onto a couple good deals.
Recently at an estate sale, I found a couple blank wood rasps. By blank, I mean they were fully shaped except there were no teeth on them, the sides are completely flat. They were about 15 inches long, 1 & 1/8 inches wide, and 7/32 inch thick. Then at another sale, I found an older Dayton 1 inch belt sander in real good condition. Both at a good price.

Hmm, I was able to add pictures to my photo album, but for some reason I can no longer insert them into a post!?!?! Perhaps you can view them in my album.

I removed the temper in the rasp blanks using an oxy-acetelene torch.
Because of the thickness of the blanks, I decided to try a modified Bowie design.

Also because of the thickness of the blanks, I decided on a 10 degree initial taper on the blade. I am now doing the final polish on the shaped blade.

My first question is, what should I use for the secondary (blade edge) taper????

My second question is what would be the correct hardening temperature and quench media?

My wife has a jewelry kiln capable of reaching temperatures over 2000 degrees and is very well temperature controlled.
I suspect that the blanks are W1 or W2, but there are no makers marks anywhere on them to verify that. I have read that both W1 and W2 are usually quenched in water, but I have also read that quenching in light machine oil or vegetable oil produces a better end result for knives.
Any recommendations?

Lastly, I am thinking about leaving the flats of the blade in the original somewhat rough darkened condition to give it an "old timey" look. Then use German silver for the guard, some ebony for the handle, two German silver spacers, and may be a German silver pommel.
Any comments on that idea?
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Old 04-24-2015, 03:13 PM
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Ray Rogers Ray Rogers is offline
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I wish I could see the pictures but, in the end, it doesn't really matter. I'm glad to hear you have started trying to make your own blades but you may have chosen a less than ideal way to do it. The problem is the wood rasps: we don't know what steel they may be and so cannot give exact information on how to heat treat it. Worse yet, while it is possible to make good knives from rasps and files not all rasps and files are suitable. If that rasp is case hardened - as is very likely with a wood rasp - then it is worthless as a blade.

My advice would be to put the rasp aside until you are experienced enough to judge for yourself whether or not it may be blade worthy. Then, buy some 1084 steel and make your blade. With 1084 you know exactly what you have, the heat treatment is simple, and the steel will be fully annealed when you get it which means it will be easy to shape (or as easy as steel ever gets anyway). Since you have access to a kiln there is simply no reason I can imagine why you would not do this rather than risk your time and materiel on questionable metal.

Finally, nickle silver is one of the more difficult metals to use as a guard and I wouldn't suggest it for a first effort. Plain brass or even steel would be preferable. Likewise, ebony can be a problematic handle material - simple maple is cheap, attractive, and extremely durable. What I'm saying here is that you are doing exactly what every other first time knife maker seems to do - you're trying to make a beautiful, fancy knife before you know how to make a good knife.

You need to learn to make a good blade before you worry about making a fancy knife. The first blades you make should be tested to the point of destruction to prove to yourself that, in fact, they were good blades. After that, then worry about making it pretty.

Look through the Stickys at the top of this forum. There is a thread on things to do before you try making your first blades....


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Old 04-24-2015, 04:31 PM
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I second what Ray said about using "known" steel. It always seems like it would be "easier" to find a piece of metal and turn it into a knife. Generally just the opposite happens.

Unless those file blanks were produced 25+ years ago, its very likely that they are mild steel..... thats about the time frame that file manufactures started creating their files with case hardened mild steel, which was/is their way of reducing material/manufacturing costs.

As far as specific bevel angles, there is no "correct" one, its all based on the geometry that works the best with the applied heat treatment.

With knowing exactly what the steel type is, there's no way to know a specific hardening temp. See the kinds of problems trying to use an unknown steel creates?


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Old 04-24-2015, 05:19 PM
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Grayshadow95 Grayshadow95 is offline
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Ray, thanks for your response, but I think you missed some of the information I put in my initial post.

First, rest assured I am well aware of how difficult German silver is to work, I have used it on several knives. I have also used brass as well as steel and copper. I especially dislike stainless steel.
I like German silver better than brass because it is both lighter and more durable than brass. I've used bar stock and plate of all of them except copper for forming guards, spacers and pommels. The copper was used only for decorative spacers.

You can view my photos in the All Photos area under Grayshadow95 knives, it was updated earlier today.

Before I did anything, I tested the file blank by attempting to file it and cut it with a hack saw. Even a diamond file would hardly even put a scratch on it.
I annealed the file blank by heating to a cherry red, then let it air cool over night. The next day, I could easily cut it with a hack saw, and the belt sander worked nicely for shaping the blade. While cutting with the hack saw, the resistance was uniform throughout. The blade is now about 75% complete.

Yes, ebony is a little difficult to work with due to the resin in it, but being a woodworker before getting deeper into knives, I have learned how to deal with it. I also picked up a nice large chunk of ebony at an estate sale for a very good price, and have already used it for three knife handles. I also have about 600 board feet of cherry, about 400 board feet of black walnut, some beautiful curly maple boards, oak boards, some kind of Australian burl, babinga, blood wood, and several other species of wood on hand. Some of the wood I have are the stabilized blocks specific for knife handles.

I've watched numerous tutorials on making blades from forging to using standard steel billets to using old files, I've even watched the entire Blade Master tutorial twice. Plus I've read countless discussions on all aspects of knife making. I also had the privilege to be able to watch a Master Blade-smith in Munich Germany hand forge a knife blade from an old wood rasp. He made the blade for my large Bowie.
I like the look of a blade made from an old file, and figured the best way to get one was to make it myself.

As you can see, I am not a total novice. But I would appreciate help in attempting to properly heat treat the blade I am working on. If it doesn't turn out, so be it. It will be a good lesson that didn't cost much money and only a few hours of time.
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Old 04-24-2015, 06:22 PM
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Okay, I was under the impression that this was your first knife. I'm glad to see that it's not if you're going to use this particular method.

Even though it now seems likely that the steel is blade worthy we still do not know what type of steel it is so we cannot know exactly how it should be heat treated. A good average guess would be to heat it to 1500? for five minutes and then quench it in warm oil. This would be warm canola oil or peanut oil or hydraulic fluid or automatic transmission fluid or professional heat treating oil- anything but used motor oil. After that, temper at 425? for one hour two times. If the blade still seems too hard then raise the tempering temperature by 25? and repeat the temper.

Since this is the first blade you made you really should test this knife very hard to make sure that the heat treating produced the results that you wanted. Most people making their first knives make them fancy and too pretty and then don't want to put them to hard use but without hard use you really can't tell if you've made a good blade or simply something that looks like a blade. Good luck, and let us know how it works out?


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Old 04-24-2015, 06:33 PM
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Thanks Ed,

I understand what you guys are saying, attempting to heat treat a blade made from these blanks is a bit of an unknown. Were I to guess, I would bet they are more than 25 years old. As I stated, I purchased them from an estate sale, the gentleman that had passed was in his late 80s. Almost all of his tools were quite old. Plus I have several old files and rasps that belonged to my father and my wife's grandfather to compare them to. My wife's grandfather passed in the early 70s, and my father passed in 1985 at the age of 63, he was a carpenter. Obviously their tools are much older than 25 years.

Consequently, I figure it is worth a try. If nothing else, it will have been good practice in shaping a blade from bar stock at a very cheap cost. I paid 50 cents for both blanks, and have already learned quite a lot about that process. I can't even come close to that cost with any known good blade steel, so it is already money well invested.

The cost to attempt to heat treat the blade will not be that significant, but will also be good practice and a learning experience.

Rest assured, I will not be selling this knife weather it works out or not.

So kindly make some recommendations based on these assumptions if you would please, to potentially help make my first attempt at making my own blade a success.
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Old 04-24-2015, 06:44 PM
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Thanks Ray, that helps a lot.

Yes, I understand what you are saying about testing the finished blade. In fact, I read the sticky post about heat treating preparation before starting this post. And I have read about the testing process for becoming a master blade-smith. That is very impressive.
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Old 05-11-2015, 02:56 PM
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Ray,
I'm thinking it would be smart to heed your advice in the heat treating sticky post, so I am creating a smaller blade out of the leftover end piece of the file blank. That way it test the process on the exact same steel.

Since I still can't insert pictures into a posting, I guess if you want to see it you'll have to look at the photos I just uploaded to my album Grayshadow95 knives.

Anyway, a couple more questions:

Should I put the final taper on the blade edge before heat treating?
It would seem that doing so would make sharpening a little easier once the knife is complete.
I'm thinking a 20 to 25 degree angle would make for a durable edge.

What is this "paste" that some guys talk about painting on the blade before heat treating? Does wrapping the blade in tin foil and inserting a small piece of wood like I've seen in some U-Tube videos work just as well?

Any suggestions on how to put my name on the blade?

Thanks!
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Old 05-11-2015, 03:51 PM
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You should be able to post pictures by now. To post a picture use the Go Advanced button just below the box where you type your text, the use the Manage Attachments on that page to add your pictures. If you have your pictures on your own hard drive and not out on the web some place like PhotoBucket that should work unless your pictures are very large. If you're using that method and it is rejecting your pictures then you need to resize them and make them more manageable.

As for your questions:

I think you are asking if you should basically sharpen your blade before the HT. No, that's not a good idea. You can easily establish that grind after HT with any small grinder and a steady hand. You are right that 20-25 degrees does make for a durable edge and that is usually considered to be the maximum for most common usages. Don't be overly concerned about getting any precise angle on your edge, anywhere in that range will be serviceable.

The paste can work but its easy to exceed the rated temp and just burn it off. 'Tin foil' is not what you want to put in a kiln, that would just melt. there is a heat treating foil that can be used - with or without a wood chip. No matter what you do to prevent scale you are going to have at least a little bit when working with those rasps. The surest cure is to do more of your grinding after the HT is finished.

An electro-etcher is the standard way to put your name on a blade, the vast majority of knife makers use this method. A stamp is the other common way but that is outside your present means and its not any cheaper than the etcher.

Google for Etch-O-Matic, check on eBay also. New, the small unit is currently about $90 but can often be found for less. Once you have an etcher you will need a stencil to go with it. Ernie Grospitch (google him) is a good source for stencils.

Or, if you know of a shop in your area that engraves jewelry they sometimes can be talked into putting your name on your blade. Be sure to tape up the edge if you go this route...


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Old 05-11-2015, 04:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Grayshadow95 View Post
What is this "paste" that some guys talk about painting on the blade before heat treating?
This clay is used to create a thermal mass that slows the cooling of the steel during the hardening process. The coated steel takes longer to cool than the uncoated steel. This creates a 'difference' in the hardness. These differential effects are called "hamon."

Quote:
Originally Posted by Grayshadow95 View Post
Does wrapping the blade in tin foil and inserting a small piece of wood like I've seen in some U-Tube videos work just as well?
Stainless steel foil (not tin or aluminum) is used to create an envelope that prevents oxygen from reacting with the blade at high temperatures. Foil is typically used when heat treating stainless steel in an electric furnace. The piece of wood or other combustible is supposed to consume the oxygen inside the envelope. I have tried with and without the combustible and found little difference. Another means to the end is replacing the oxygen in the furnace with an inert gas.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Grayshadow95 View Post
Any suggestions on how to put my name on the blade?

A lot of us use an electrolytic etching setup. Usually some form of simple low-voltage power supply, electrolyte (conductive liquid) and a stencil. Point your search engine to "electroetching" and see what comes up.

Good luck!

Dan
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Old 05-11-2015, 05:10 PM
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Talking

Thanks for the great info guys!

Ray, no I wasn't thinking to actually sharpen the blade before heat treating. Right now, there is a thin "butter knife" edge on it, and I was thinking to put a "dull" edge before heat treat and final polish. My hands aren't as steady as they use to be, that's why I make jigs to hold the blade at a set angle.
I have several good hard Arkansas stones and diamond hones to sharpen my knives.

A test of posting a photo:

Attachment 15297

Looks like it worked!

I think I'll try the heat treat without the "paste" to see how it turns out.

OK, thanks, I'll look into the electro-etching.

Last edited by Grayshadow95; 11-05-2015 at 07:15 PM.
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Old 05-11-2015, 06:04 PM
Doug Lester Doug Lester is offline
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Nice looking grind for a first blade. As far as doing a clay coating to try to produce a hamon it doesn't make much sense for a small blade. They are just not given the heavy use that would profit from differential hardening. Many people think that differential hardening is the mark of a superior knife because it's required by the ABS in their performance test when it just a test to see if the maker can produce a blade that will survive an bending test without total failure, nothing more. Some larger blades that could be used for chopping might be improved by differential hardening but so would getting a hatchet to chop with.

Doug


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Old 05-11-2015, 06:21 PM
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He isn't talking about clay coating, he's talking about anti-scale compounds like ThermaRose PBC that you just paint onto the steel. I tried it, and I've heard from a few others who have used similar compounds but I don't know of anyone who continued to use them over the long haul....


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Old 05-11-2015, 06:35 PM
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Thanks Doug.
Actually that small blade is my second grind, the first one was a 6.5 inch blade, and was the reason for the start of this post. The small blade I made to test out the heat treat process on the metal. They started out as an old file blank that was about 16 inches long.

Which left a piece a little over 6 inches long for the smaller one.

After receiving some good advice from Ray on the larger blade, I am making the second smaller blade to test using my wife's jewelry kiln to heat treat.

I will let everyone know how it works out!

Al

Last edited by Grayshadow95; 10-26-2017 at 09:04 PM.
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