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The Newbies Arena Are you new to knife making? Here is all the help you will need.

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  #1  
Old 09-14-2008, 02:35 PM
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Newb WIP (Pic Heavy)

I found out when you're just starting out, telling your friends your making knives has its risks. A friend of mine sent me a "simple design", he wanted to make. He wants it made out of 52100, and wants it hard enough to keep an edge for a long time. He explained, "I won't use it for anything but cutting, so see what you can do."

I'll apologize in advance for the pics, I'm learning that too.


Knife drawing from friend


Bar of 52100 with piece cut for knife on anvil


A little heat and beat


Forge with bar


More heat and beat


Starting to shape


refining shape a bit


Scale ground off with template for comparison
Note to self: Wait for knife to cool COMPLETELY before laying on pattern


Ugliest thing in the shop

Last edited by Big Medicine; 09-14-2008 at 02:46 PM.
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  #2  
Old 09-14-2008, 06:41 PM
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He won't use it for anything but cutting? What does he use his other knives for?

I apologize in advance if I'm about to tell you something you already know but I thought it was worth mentioning. Let me also add that I am no expert on forging but I have made some blades from 52100. It's great steel and makes a superb blade if you forge it correctly and heat treat it correctly. Unfortunately, that can be rather difficult for a beginner and even for some of the experts. According to the factory specs 52100 requires an exceptionally narrow forging temperature. If you wander far from that temp your blade loses the characteristics you expect from 52100 and the loss can be rapid, right up to and including total failure. So, you picked a difficult steel to use to learn on . You might want to test the blade fairly well to see how it behaves even if he is just planning to use it for 'cutting' ....


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  #3  
Old 09-14-2008, 07:39 PM
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B.Finnigan B.Finnigan is offline
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52100 likes to crack on you right at around 3/4 of the way through forging. I have more ruined 52100 blades then finished ones.
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Old 09-14-2008, 07:49 PM
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Thanks for the input Ray, I hear what you're saying. In this case I didn't pick the steel, he did. We both agreed this would be an experiment, and we'd just see how it worked out. I may very well end up putting this one in the "lessons learned pile" and making the knife out of something less challenging. This guy hunts with me every year, so there's no pressure or charge involved. All (I think) I know about 52100 is to keep it between 1700 an 2200 degrees, and pay close attention to the heat treating. What he meant by "He won't use it for anything but cutting" is that he's not going to try and chop with it or use it as a pry bar. This is the first time for me to use this steel. I've only forged knives out of O-1, 1084, 5160, and 15N20 so far. We'll see how it goes, I'll keep you posted. Any tips or advise on how to handle it would be appreciated.

Thanks again,
Gerry McGuire
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  #5  
Old 09-14-2008, 07:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by B.Finnigan
52100 likes to crack on you right at around 3/4 of the way through forging. I have more ruined 52100 blades then finished ones.
I'll keep an eye out for any cracks, that would definitely blow
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Old 09-14-2008, 09:06 PM
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B.Finnigan B.Finnigan is offline
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I think the cracks came from forging it into the red heat area and not bright orange. I normally only forge with 5160, 1080 and 1084 which tolerates forging in the red w/o any problems. I use my bar of 52100 for hammers, punches and chisels.

Good luck on the knife and keep it orange. Show some pics when you finish it. And if it cracks you will be in good company here.
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Old 09-14-2008, 11:00 PM
Doug Lester Doug Lester is offline
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I hope that your friend isn't wanting a blade that will stay sharp like ZPD189 or S30V, he's going to be disappointed. I hope that you pointed out to him that the flip side of holding an edge for a long time is being more difficult to sharpen when it does become dull.

Doug Lester


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Old 09-15-2008, 09:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Doug Lester
I hope that your friend isn't wanting a blade that will stay sharp like ZPD189 or S30V, he's going to be disappointed. I hope that you pointed out to him that the flip side of holding an edge for a long time is being more difficult to sharpen when it does become dull.

Doug Lester
Doug, I don't think he's familiar with either of those steels, I have not worked with them either. This guy has made knives by stock removal for about 30 years, so he's aware of the downside on sharpening. He used to work with the owner of Laurel Machine and Foundry, so he probably knows more about older types of steel than I do. This is just a fun project, an experiment for both of us.

Last edited by Big Medicine; 09-15-2008 at 09:35 AM.
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Old 09-15-2008, 09:34 AM
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The factory specs say this about forging 52100:

Forge at 1950-2100 F Do not forge below 1700 F After forging equalize at 1372 F and hold 4 - 6 hours, then air cool.

That's pretty picky, good luck ....


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Old 09-15-2008, 09:44 AM
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The info I had from http://www.steelforge.com/alloys/?alloy=52100
gave the following:

Forging
The alloy may be supplied as forgings and also may be subsequently forged at 2200 F down to 1700 F

Is this incorrect or are the ranges you gave the optimal forging temps?
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  #11  
Old 09-15-2008, 01:20 PM
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Actually, that's pretty close to the same range. What I quoted came from the factory that makes 52100. As I read it, it says 52100 wants to be forged in a narrow 150 F range from 1950 - 2100 F but can tolerate being forged as low as 1700 F before the really bad problems (as stated by others earlier) would be expected to start. Since it moves like molasses under a hammer and since it's very difficult for most of us to know what temperature the steel has at any given moment and since it only takes a few seconds to drop 150 F once the steel is out of the forge the chances of complete success gets pretty slim. Remember also that when the factory talks about forging they aren't thinking about a hammer and anvil in most instances.

All of that being as it is, many knives still get made from 52100 and they often perform extremely well. Take your time, keep it very hot, remember to normalize, and do the heat treatment carefully and your results will probably be acceptable even if the total process wasn't perfect by factory standards ....


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Old 09-15-2008, 01:46 PM
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Thanks for the clarification. I'm pretty much finished with the forging part, moving to the grinder next. Will let you know how it goes. I wouldn't mind building your homemade hardness tester to check the blade, but I think that's way beyond my skill level. The best I can do right now is a set of testing files that give me an approximate hardness.

Thanks again for the input guys, now back to the grind
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Old 09-15-2008, 06:25 PM
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As I'm sure you know, hardness is only part of the story. I think it's an important part and knowing the hardness helps to insure consistency from blade to blade. But, your 52100 blade could be very hard and still have poor crystaline structure due to incompatible forging range or a poor heat treat or other factors. The proof of the pudding will be in the testing and I'd test it beyond the anticipated use parameters. Without that, you won't really know if you learned anything or not ...


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Old 09-15-2008, 09:30 PM
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Good points, Thanks for taking time to give the advice.
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