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High-Performance Blades Sharing ideas for getting the most out of our steel.

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  #31  
Old 01-20-2005, 06:19 PM
dancbr929 dancbr929 is offline
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Hey Chris

I have the blade ready for heat treating but I need to get the money together to pay for It.
The IRS is sending me money so I should send the blade out soon.

I didn't get your last scetch because I gave you the wrong E mail adress.

dancbr929@hotmail.com

Dan
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  #32  
Old 01-23-2005, 05:51 PM
Ssj2 Ssj2 is offline
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Dan I sent you one sketch of the sword did you get it? One thing I forgot to metion on that drawing is that the triangeler fitings on the handle arn't just for looks they cover up to bolts and they go thrue to the other side. If you would like a seperate drawing of that I could send it as well.


Chris
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  #33  
Old 01-23-2005, 06:51 PM
Fsawyer Fsawyer is offline
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I hate to burst everyone's bubble.. but MOST REAL sword makers.. won't make a sword out of stainless steel at all.

Flexibility, strength, and hardness are all a consideration. S30v I've been told is really tough and hard at the same time.. but is NOT flexible. Swords MUST flex... or they are useless.

MOST people that collect REAL swords will tell you that ANY sword made of stainless steel is called a Wallhanger.. looks good on the wall.. but is not built to be used.
Now the REAL question here is.. do you want looks or function.


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  #34  
Old 01-23-2005, 10:41 PM
Ssj2 Ssj2 is offline
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unless the sword is a rapier it does not need to flex much. Toughness and hardness are the to most important factors in a ninja sword.

Last edited by Ssj2; 01-23-2005 at 10:47 PM.
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  #35  
Old 01-23-2005, 11:37 PM
Fsawyer Fsawyer is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ssj2
unless the sword is a rapier it does not need to flex much. Toughness and hardness are the to most important factors in a ninja sword.

As I said.. MOST real sword makers won't make swords out of stainless steel.. at all.

Have you ever seen a really GOOD functional Katana with a real hammond line.. clay differentially heat treated.. made out of stainless? I doubt it.

Go to the sword forums.. international sword forum comes to mind.. and ask about stainless steel swords.

By the way.. I don't want to sound arrogant or an ass.. but I work parttime for one of the best sword makers in the US.
Of course most people don't want a REAL sword.. that is more function than looks... because they aren't cheap.


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  #36  
Old 01-24-2005, 12:35 AM
AwP AwP is offline
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You're mostly right, but for every rule there's the exceptions. A very skilled smith and HTer can make some stainlesses into an acceptable sword, I forget the names I've heard of offhand, but they're pretty big names in sword circles. Untill s30v came out, 440c was about the only stainless I can think of worth making a sword from, and just because it can work, doesn't mean the majority of stainless swords aren't junk. Just letting you know that there are exceptions. By the way, I got this info from sword forums.


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  #37  
Old 01-24-2005, 02:00 AM
Fsawyer Fsawyer is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AwP
You're mostly right, but for every rule there's the exceptions. A very skilled smith and HTer can make some stainlesses into an acceptable sword, I forget the names I've heard of offhand, but they're pretty big names in sword circles. Untill s30v came out, 440c was about the only stainless I can think of worth making a sword from, and just because it can work, doesn't mean the majority of stainless swords aren't junk. Just letting you know that there are exceptions. By the way, I got this info from sword forums.

I guess anything is possible.. I just don't know any really good swordsmiths that produce $5,000 swords made of stainless steel.

To most swordsmiths.. making a sword out of stainless steel cheapens it.. and is about as useful as a divers knife made of tool steel.


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  #38  
Old 01-24-2005, 04:11 AM
AwP AwP is offline
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I didn't realize a sword had to be $5000 to not be junk. I concider swords that are functional and not wallhangers to not be junk. Heck, Paul Chen makes $200 swords that are very popular among Japanese sword art practicioners. The Chen isn't stainless, but it shows a sword doesn't need to be $5000 to be a decient sword.

Here's some makers who make decient functional stainless swords, Jerry Hossom, Barry Dawson, and Rob Criswell. Admittedly these people and a few others are exceptions to the rule. Most stainless swords are junk even if they cost $5000. Unless they proudly proclaim who the maker is then it's junk. Even if they do name a maker, research the maker before you get it since some people are willing to put their names on crap.


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  #39  
Old 01-24-2005, 08:27 AM
Jerry Hossom Jerry Hossom is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fsawyer
I guess anything is possible.. I just don't know any really good swordsmiths that produce $5,000 swords made of stainless steel.

To most swordsmiths.. making a sword out of stainless steel cheapens it.. and is about as useful as a divers knife made of tool steel.

Well, I don't make $5000 anythings, but I'd certainly have no problem making a $2000 sword in S30V stainless, put my name on it, and warrant that it will make any cut and withstand any abuse any other sword of similar value will handle. But then I don't claim to be a "really good" swordsmith. Maybe that's my problem...


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  #40  
Old 01-24-2005, 02:52 PM
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mete mete is offline
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Make one Jerry, show them what it's all about !!
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  #41  
Old 01-25-2005, 02:20 AM
Gabe Newell Gabe Newell is offline
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Hey, Jerry, I will take you up on that! It is a cool project and should happen! Even cooler if you could make an identical piece in 154/3V to compare Get Bos to describe his heat treat and we all learn something.


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  #42  
Old 01-25-2005, 12:33 PM
R. Lemmen R. Lemmen is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fsawyer
As I said.. MOST real sword makers won't make swords out of stainless steel.. at all.

Have you ever seen a really GOOD functional Katana with a real hammond line.. clay differentially heat treated.. made out of stainless? I doubt it.

Go to the sword forums.. international sword forum comes to mind.. and ask about stainless steel swords.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fsawyer
To most swordsmiths.. making a sword out of stainless steel cheapens it.. and is about as useful as a divers knife made of tool steel.
1) This is a very closed minded attitude. How can you progress in the art of swordmaking if you are completely unwilling to try new materials? Be opinionated after you have tried and tested the material in question.

2) I think it is very difficult if not impossible to achieve a HAMON in stainless steels. Clay backed heat treatment simply won't work due to the different material chemistry. This does not mean that you can't heat treat the blade to get the desired mechanical properties.

I get the feeling that a lot of these opinions are like religion. People read and form opinions based on faith without handling the actual articles in question. Questions of materials are scientific in nature. Place your faith in God, not metal!

I can understand that you value the history and tradition and artwork in a hand forged carbon steel sword. I do too. What I will not do is impugn the value of the work of people who are doing testing into new materials and processes. If they work, then they work and if they don't, then they don't. This research does nothing to reduce the value of traditional pieces.

I am not a swordmaker. I am just an engineer who dislikes the amount of disinformation people are willing to publish and believe.
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  #43  
Old 01-25-2005, 07:07 PM
Jerry Hossom Jerry Hossom is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gabe Newell
Hey, Jerry, I will take you up on that! It is a cool project and should happen! Even cooler if you could make an identical piece in 154/3V to compare Get Bos to describe his heat treat and we all learn something.

Gabe, I couldn't afford that piece of damascus and it would scare hell out of my grinding on it if I could.

I think someone needs to stop and think about the purpose of a sword. It is not something intended to look pretty and that was never the intention of a hamon. Hamon's are cool as hell, but their function is to accommodate shortcomings in the steel used. It needs to be hard to penetrate and cut, but if it's completely hard it will break. It needs to be tough, but to make it completely tough it won't be hard. So they made what is essentially a laminate of hard and tough. Even so, the edge can crack and the spine can bend irreversibly due to plasticity. A bent sword isn't a whole lot of good. It's all a balancing act, and that can be achieved by careful selection of steels to use with edge hardening techniques, or it can be achieved with modern alloys that are inherently tough even when hard. CPM-3V is almost stainless (about like D2) and IMO it will challenge most any steel in any form for hardness and toughness with minimal plasticity issues.

Mete, I guess your rolleyes smilie means you don't think it's possible, and you're certainly entitled to your opinion. I have howver made swords in A2 that have made some fairly prodigious cuts through bone and other hard materials, and S30V is as tough as A2. Would it be my first choice in a sword steel? No, I'd choose 3V, but I am convinced that S30V can make a very serviceable sword. The damascus Gabe mentioned is stainless. In fact, it resists etching like nothing I've seen, is extremely tough, and can be hardened to Rc61 if desired, though I'd likely choose Rc58 for a sword.

Gabe, I'll probably make that S30V sword anyway, simply because it needs to be made. We'll call it the Gaijin Katana...


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  #44  
Old 02-08-2005, 07:14 PM
peregrine peregrine is offline
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All wet?

Perhaps I have no room to talk. I?ve never made a sword, though I have both stainless and carbon ones hanging, yes, on the wall. Decorations, yep. But then again, I would not want anyone chasing (emphasis on chasing) me around with one of my stainless steel broadswords. It appears to me, with a degree of common sense, that if you want to gauge a swords effectiveness the way Angel Sword Heavy Cutting Tameshigiri Challenge did recently (see URL), in which the winner, Bruce Baldwin cut 23 soaked tatami mats with one cut of his sword, you can. But the question here is how many would a sharpened stainless steel sword cut. (Based upon similar sword length and weight, I would think that it would be acceptable.) Since there is no where, where they are banged against each other, testing true fighting senario, you would have to hack one sword against another to see what happens. I can guarantee that you won?t want to do this with a $4000. - $5000. sword. Then really, would this mean that the losing sword, was a piece of junk? Probably not! In the hands of a quick-draw sword-cut stylist, it would still a deadly weapon. With broadsword types weapons which function like axes and rapiers that must be a flexible, sticking weapon? can a good (great?) sword be made out of stainless? This is the question. How could we ever know for sure? Certainly, some maybe preferred to others. Especially, if you have $5000. to spend. Then again, won?t it still be hanging on your wall?
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  #45  
Old 02-08-2005, 08:40 PM
Fsawyer Fsawyer is offline
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I work at Angel Sword.

I am of course going to be a bit prejudiced.


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