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The Damascus Forum The art and study of Damascus steel making.

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  #1  
Old 03-05-2010, 11:50 AM
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squigly1965 squigly1965 is offline
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Can I work a Damascus Billet?

Ok this is for a future project. I bought a 5160 and 15n20 1 1/4" x 12" x 5/32" Damascus Billet. It's a little shorter and a little wider than I need it to be.
Can I draw it out some still. Or do I risk separating the layers by doing so. Will this steel configuration produce a decent Hamon line. The Finished blade I'm looking at about 1" wide 16"-18" long
There will be some taper in the blade shape so I think I can accomplish it

These are newb questions cuz I'm a newb

Thank you

Chris
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Old 03-05-2010, 02:16 PM
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Alan L Alan L is offline
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5160 is not your friend in damascus. Get some 1070, 1084, or 1095 (or even W-1) to pair with your 15n20. The 5160 has a bad tendency to shear if used with other chrome or nickel-bearing steels, and is hard to weld to itself.

It CAN work, but it's not very forgiving. 5160 is an excellent steel for monosteel blades, don't get me wrong! It just doesn't play well with others, even if kept at a high welding heat the whole time.

It also doesn't show an active hamon. You can get a good straight line, but it's a deep-hardening steel what with the chrome, and that doesn't lend itself to producing any sort of effects beyond a plain line. It is also an oil-hardening steel, as is 15n20. It'll even harden in air if in very thin sections like, say, a knife blade.

It's also gonna be hard to squish the 5/32 bar down from 1.25 to 1 inch without it buckling a bit. It will get thicker on the edge you're hammering on, and you can use that to your advantage in drawing out the bar if you want a curve to the blade. Depending on the pattern and the layer count, this is the most stressful thing short of quenching you can do to the bar. In other words, yes, you are at high risk for delamination.

If you want to try it go ahead, but keep it HOT while hammering! As in, do not forge below a yellow heat. If it were a bar of straight carbon steel and 15n20 it would be much more forgiving.
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Old 03-05-2010, 09:30 PM
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squigly1965 squigly1965 is offline
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Thanks for the response Alan.
I was afraid of all this. the billet is 576 layers BTW

The project this was to do is a Japanese style short sword the Wakizashi. It will be a graduation gift for my nephew when he graduates next year.
Since I'm a newb I bought the piece Mainly as a backup if my skills or equipment prevent me from being able to fold the steel myself.
Since I've upgraded my forge, I think my equipment are less of an issue any more.

Well I guess if things dont work out I can still make him a Tanto from the billet

Questions:
If I was to try to make it from Cable. I was looking at the sections Ellis sales on their site. How thick of a a 10" section of wire cable would I need to make a 20-24" x 1.25" x 1/8" Billet.
Not familiar with the conversion formulas yet

Chris
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Old 03-05-2010, 10:56 PM
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Ray Rogers Ray Rogers is offline
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Wow, Chris, you are so far ahead of yourself it's not even funny. You have laid out a couple of projects for yourself that would severely test someone who had years of experience at forging. Slow down and back up.

First, Alan already explained some of the difficulties with the billet you have but he didn't mention that it really isn't practical to try to get a hamon on any piece of damascus. A hamon just doesn't show worth a darn on damascus. If you want to see a hamon, use a simple carbon steel like 1065 or 1080.

Second, you asked about cable: probably the single most difficult type of pattern weld steel to make, especially a beginner. Forget cable until you get some practice at forge welding.

If you want to make damascus, get some 1080 and 15N20. That's the most common mix and as close to fool proof as you can get. If you want a hamon, use the 1080 or 1065 by itself. But mostly, figure on spending at least a few months forging and learning to heat treat 4" to 6" blades before you tackle anything in the 20" range. That is an entirely different can of worms .....


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Old 03-05-2010, 11:20 PM
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I know that I am not ready. I was trying to find out if it was possible before I tried it and destroyed a good piece of steel

I wasn't really trying to make a Damascus blade. But the Billet was well priced and I was Ignorant.

I was more looking at this project as something to work towards. It's well over a year away. My nephew is a Junior now

And I must have heard wrong I thought that Cable was where to start. I'm glad you set me straight.

Actually I was wanting to do more of a folded steel blade for this project. I do want to learn to make Damascus. But I was trying to make this as authentic as i possibly can for him. Is making a folded steel blade as difficult as making damascus?

I guess I'm trying to figure out if this is an achievable goal or am I biting off a bit too much?
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Old 03-06-2010, 09:43 AM
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Ray Rogers Ray Rogers is offline
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Making a piece of pattern welded steel is not all that difficult BUT trying to forge a pattern welded blade before you can forge a plain steel blade in your sleep is almost surely doomed to failure.

Don't worry too much about 'authentic' at this point as 90% of the Japanese blades we make are not very authentic at all. The good news is, authentic or not, most of the modern work is far superior to authentic blades when measured by modern criteria. Make a plain steel blade, put a hamon on it, that's authentic enough for now. In two years you will probably be ready to do more.

Making a folded steel blade is much more difficult than making damascus IMO if you want good results. It's easy enough to fold the steel but not easy to get a clean weld that way. That's why the steel gets folded so many times - trying to work the crap out of the welds that gets trapped in there every time you fold that scaly mess over onto itself. In ancient times, the folding was done to try to distribute carbon through pieces of steel some of which had way too much and some of which didn't have nearly enough. We don't need to do that, our steels already have exactly what we need in them. So, if you want to work the ancient ways, make a forge in the dirt (a Jap oven), smelt some iron ore, and go to town. Lots of guys enjoy doing this. It may take a year to make a single large knife or sword this way but if your skill level is high enough it will bring a good bit of money. However, the resulting knife isn't likely to out perform a similar knife of modern steel though it may perform quite well.

After you get your forge going and after you've forged a couple of blades and finished them into knives you can be satisfied with, then take that billet you bought and try to shape it into the size you want. Then, either forge your blade or use stock removal to make a blade from it. If the steel survives the process (5160 is not your friend in damascus as Alan said) you can start learning how to etch damascus so that it looks as you want it to. Not so easy, really. At first, you might think it was easy but after you look at yours and compare to others you start to wonder how they did that because it looks so much better than yours.

The make some yourself. Start with 3 pieces, two different steels sandwiched, and learn to weld. You can make a San Mai blade from that piece if it works. Next time, use more layers. It won't be long before you find out you need more muscle to do much of that kind of work. At that point, your strength and endurance will determine how many layers and what patterns you might be able to accomplish. That will bring you to your next big expenditure, i.e., a power hammer or hydraulic press (or a membership at Gold's Gym) ......


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Last edited by Ray Rogers; 03-06-2010 at 09:47 AM.
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Old 03-06-2010, 09:58 AM
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Alrighty Thank you for all the Info.
As it stands I'm not comfortable enough with my skills to try to forge from the billet. That may change in a years time. I may just use it like I said for the Tanto and maybe make him a Wakizashi from carbon steel. IDK
I'll figure it out when the time comes.


Thanks again Ray helpful as always
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