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  #31  
Old 07-16-2017, 01:10 PM
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Jacknola Jacknola is offline
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The rest of the story....



Gentlemen and Ladies... I am both delighted and saddened to tell the rest of the story of General Hal Moore's DSC pictured Randall knife. I received an E-mail from Lt Col. Steve Moore (ret), who discussed the subject with his brother Col. Dave Moore (ret). Here is his message:

"Jack – my brother is here to fish with me for a few days and he told me that Dad treasured the pictured knife. It was given to him by GEN Westmoreland and was stolen out of the shipment when the family moved from Korea to Fort Ord, CA.

"My brother moved to Auburn after he retired from the Army to make sure Dad was taken care of and spent far more time with him than the rest of us. Many times when Dad would see the picture with the DSC (people would send it for his autograph), he would express his sadness at the loss of the knife."


Despite me being a graduate of the U. of Alabama (that is a gentle dig at the Auburn connection for those of you not fortunate to have loved and lived in the great State of Alabama), I have found this to be an amazing story; the search for a famous Randall. And then the surfacing of another rare and historically important one, his father-in-law, Col. Compton's knife. Unfortunately it appears that Gen Moore's DSC Randall will never be photo'd. But it is nice to know what happened and some of its history. And there is important information that can be deduced from this story:

(1) The knife was probably stolen in 1970-71 when Gen. Moore was reassigned from command of the 7th ID in Korea to the US..

(2) When did General Westmoreland present Moore with the knife? Well, the knife is either late '40s, or mid '50s (based on spacers). There could be many opportunities during their often overlapping careers for Westmoreland to present the knife to Moore. But given the RMK spacers, logically there are two main possibilities to consider...especially as such a presentation of a combat knife would likely be associated with personal field activities rather than say ... West Point teaching assignments.

- One prime possibility is that Westmoreland presented it to him 1952-53 during the Korea War, when Westmoreland commanded the 187th Airborne Regimental Combat Team and when Capt. Moore was in combat as a company commander. Problem with this is that during the Korean War, Moore was in the 7th ID and Westmoreland was 187th.

- So... it is more likely that Westmoreland gave the knife to Moore sometime during 1949-50 when Westmoreland was chief of staff of the 82nd Airborne and Moore was an up-and-coming young officer in the 82nd experimental airborne test detachment. My money is on late 1940s ... which would be consistent with the spacers.. and that makes the loss of the that knife a special loss for all RMK historical collectors.

(3) Second deduction that flows logically from the above is that Westmoreland had an appreciation of RMKs that long preceded acquisition of his famous ivory handled model 1(5)-6 in. he carried in Vietnam (see photo below). I have postulated and posted documentation that RMKs were the knife of choice in the Airborne units especially in officer ranks, because of the esteem held for General "jumpin" Jim Gavin - the original Airborne officer RMK owner (see photos below). Examples of early RMK acquisition are widespread among officers in the WWII Airborne that later rose to high rank... including later Generals Westmoreland and Singlaub.

The importance of an RMK among the airborne forces of WWII-Korea carried over to the foundation of the Special Forces in 1952 when the initial units were formed mostly from veteran airborne and ranger solders (I have documentation about the men who were assigned to the original SF unit, but it is a long story and not particularly germane to RMks). This is probably why RMKs became the one of the required original status symbols of SF (along with Rolex watch) that was continued as a legacy into the Vietnam war era...which is why my brother and I, both Special Forces, bought Randalls in 1965-66 and carried them in Vietnam, which is why I am typing this today.

(4) General Westmoreland's original Randall was probably also damaged, stolen or lost which caused him to place an emergency order to RMK for a replacement in 1963-4, which was filled by that famous ivory handle knife. And this raises a possibility that Westmoreland gave his own original personal Randall knife to a young Hal Moore in 1949 and that Moore carried that knife faithfully until it was stolen ... and would be consistent with his sense of loss (speculation alert-I still regret losing my stolen RMK from Vietnam that was not specially presented to me).

(5) Next project... see if I can photo General Singlaub's Randall that he acquired in WWII and carried throughout his career, and interview him about it.

I hope all have enjoyed the unfolding of this story, and my heartfelt appreciation goes to LTC Steve Moore who graciously accommodated my questions and who continued to follow up until the story was complete.

For reference, below are pictures of Gen. James Gavin with his Randall gearing up for the Market (Garden) Jump.. and another picture of Gen. Westmoreland in Vietnam with his Randall... and some pictures of that knife in the museum, courtesy of research by Wally Mabry.






Last edited by Jacknola; 07-18-2017 at 09:10 AM.
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  #32  
Old 07-16-2017, 03:37 PM
jeepster jeepster is offline
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About a year or two ago I was sitting behind my table at The Tennessee Military Collectors Association Show talking to my good friend Carl Vencil (SF/SOG) when I made contact with a gentleman walking down the aisle. He then looked away leaving me to try and figure out who I was looking at. When bam it hit me. It was Gen. Singlaub. I went kinda crazy and said Carl! That is Gen. Singlaub. He asked if I was sure and I said, positive. Then Singlaub turned his head and Carl saw that it was and he jumped up to go visit with an old friend. Carl introduced me to the General. I couldn't believe I was standing with such an American fighting man. We visited for a while and even came back to the table and signed a book for me. I know this isn't relevant to the conversation but just wanted to toss it out there. The Gen. had family in Franklin, TN and had moved there to be close to them. What a man he is!
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  #33  
Old 07-16-2017, 04:00 PM
crutchtip crutchtip is online now
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This is the best thread I have seen in quite some time. Jack has done a great job with it.

Mitchell, you and I have spoken about your knife numerous times, and I don't think it was made anywhere close to a few or even a couple of months later. I think it was made at the same time as the original Zach, within weeks. I don't think but a handful with the upside finger grips were made because they were fine for Bo's proffered fighting technique but somewhat uncomfortable for general utilitarian purposes, which is what most knives spend their life doing. Even the Zach pictured in Gaddis is sans finger grips, and guess it it was that tail end of stag fighters of the type.

I met Singlaub at Bragg upon the 30th anniversary of the first HALO insert in Viet Nam. I went up with my cousin Doug Miller. Jack will recognize that name, but may know him as Franklin D. Miller. There were a bunch of guys from SOG there. I have photos, business cards, and stuff of the get together and a video made by a production company that was going to do a story on it.

I also acquired some team patches and other artifacts. The 5th team house was a treasure trove of stuff. My head was spinning with the value of the items on the collector market hanging on the wall and sitting around

I also met and spent some time with 2nd Chief SOG Blackburn 65-66 at his condo in Sarasota. He was up in years at the time and Doug and I went down to see him. He got along ok, but time was taking it's toll, but still had some recollection of some interesting stories. He had sitting in his living room the mounted elephant tusk that he is pictured holding in Plaster's SOG book. Pretty neat piece. Would have like to have had that in my living room. I don't believe he held on too much longer after our visit.

Last edited by crutchtip; 07-16-2017 at 04:29 PM.
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  #34  
Old 07-16-2017, 07:00 PM
jeepster jeepster is offline
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That's awesome Joe. I have Plasters SOG book. It's a great book. I have a great selection of SOG books in my library.
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  #35  
Old 07-18-2017, 03:26 PM
BoBlade BoBlade is offline
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Jack,

Fantastic research and presentation! I dare say Bo would be proud and happy.

Joe,

You make your case based on the fact that the knife in question is a "Commando" as described by Bo in Gaddis' book as follows:

"During the last half of 1942 and into the first couple of months of 1943, Bo experimented with a few combat knife designs besides the Zacharias-Randall style. At first some men had him modify his catalog Models 6 and 7 hunters for combat duty. This consisted of sharpening the blade on the top edge and using a double hilt. The handles were of stag but usually not crown. He adopted the term "Commando" to denote these earliest of his double-hilted combat knives".


One of the problems I have with your claim is that the description of these knives is so general and the "styles" mentioned don't help us:
1: "Zacharias style": No resemblance to the knife in question!
2. Any other "Commando" that was a modified Hunter (Handle material notwithstanding): No resemblance to the knife in question!
You probably have more Commando photos that anyone else. In this thread I've asked you to post any other "Commando" with a likeness and you couldn't do this. If you want to see a likeness of the blade grind, go to Bob's book on page 50 / Photo 43 (Early 40's group of knives) third from the bottom!

Another problem I have is that the spacer set on the knife in question matches no other knives post the first half of '42!. It does, however match up pretty closely with knives from 1939-1941.


The last and biggest problem I have with your assessment is the sheath":


If there is any doubt about it, the sheath is the clincher! However, earlier in this thread you pass it off when you say "I know the style of sheath would make us question the date, but that was the style Moore made for that blade grind, so it would stand to reason he would continue with that pattern in the short term". Would stand to who's reason, Joe? I think yours and yours alone. Saying this sheath was made after (1) The Zacharias sheath in Bob's book and (2) Tune's sheath because of the blade grind difference is stretching the facts to their breaking point.

The sheath to this knife is virtually identical to the sheaths made for earlier ('40 and '41) era knives like mine and Chuck's:




I've made a case that the grind, the spacer stack and the sheath are earlier than the Zacharias and I have offered hard facts.

In this thread you blame me for "The fracture in the Randall knife community" like you were not a contributor! I love Randall knives and everything associated with them to include their history, and when I see actual facts distorted and twisted to be later assimilated into Randall history, I get serious about protecting the brand. Like the early 60's Heiser sheaths. Feel free to re-write Randall history, Joe. But know that it won't go unchallenged.

Ron
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  #36  
Old 07-18-2017, 04:27 PM
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Jacknola Jacknola is offline
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Steve Moore has sent a message opining that the knife was given to Hal Moore by Westmoreland in Vietnam, immediately after the battle at LZ X-ray. This could be… but I think if that is the case, given that 10-15 year age of the blade, it would have to have been an unusual presentation knife, perhaps special to Gen Westmoreland. Those old Randall blades were not just floating around in Vietnam in 1965.

Here is what Steve wrote and also two pictures he sent., one right after x-ray in 1965...no Randall... and one a few months later in 1966 with Randall. Too bad we cannot see details of the Randall on the April-1966 picture.

"Jack - we are pretty sure GEN Westmoreland gave Dad the knife after the big fight at Lz Xray, but cannot confirm that. Westmoreland visited the units right after that battle and that would have been an opportune time. I was 13 when Dad went to VN and do not remember the knife from any of the outdoor activities we did.

"I looked at the thread and do not think Dad and Westmoreland crossed paths in Korea. I have read all of Dad's letters home from Korea and Vietnam and he does not mention the gift in either. With so much going on in VN, I can understand why he would not mention this to Mom at that point.

"When at Fort Bragg, Dad was transferred from the 82nd to the Field Forces Board Airborne Test Section to do the parachute testing. The section was commanded by then LTC Kinnard. I do not think Westmoreland would have had much visibility into the activities since he was in the 82nd."

April 1966


Nov 1965


I replied as follows:

I agree the presentation would be unlikely to have occurred during Korean War - both men had a day job separate from each other. And from what you mentioned about the earlier 82nd period, that too seems unlikely. Perhaps Gen Westmoreland did give it to your dad in Vietnam post x-ray. But in that case, I would wonder if the presentation knife was an old Randall Westy had used from the post-WWII era that he thought was too beat-up to wear ceremonially Vietnam. Therefore he had acquired the ivory model. Or perhaps someone on staff had rotated home and gave his old combat Randall to Westmoreland who passed it on to your father...though that seems a little far fetched.

Perhaps the answer will never be found. ... In any case, it is a beautiful story and wonderful to reflect upon because is such a human story...not command, not war, not mission.

Thinking back to that era and the men I served with and under almost brings tears to my eyes. ... In any case I like to think the knife had special meaning for Westmoreland given its age. It makes that photo more special than it already is. It is but a footnote in history, but footnotes make history.

Last edited by Jacknola; 07-20-2017 at 01:17 PM.
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  #37  
Old 07-18-2017, 09:43 PM
crutchtip crutchtip is online now
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I will post my responses in red to make it easier for the readers to distinguish what is what


Quote:
Originally Posted by BoBlade View Post
Jack,

Fantastic research and presentation! I dare say Bo would be proud and happy.

Joe,

You make your case based on the fact that the knife in question is a "Commando" as described by Bo in Gaddis' book as follows:

"During the last half of 1942 and into the first couple of months of 1943, Bo experimented with a few combat knife designs besides the Zacharias-Randall style. At first some men had him modify his catalog Models 6 and 7 hunters for combat duty. This consisted of sharpening the blade on the top edge and using a double hilt. The handles were of stag but usually not crown. He adopted the term "Commando" to denote these earliest of his double-hilted combat knives".



and the problem with that passage is? He describes Brian's knife exactly. Not a maybe, but exactly. I have examined that knife and it is a Commando, the earliest example of the type I have seen. Appreciate it, there probably isn't another.

One of the problems I have with your claim is that the description of these knives is so general and the "styles" mentioned don't help us:
1: "Zacharias style": No resemblance to the knife in question!

I bolded and underlined it for you above Ron because you obviously did not understand it. He states "experimented with designs BESIDES the Zacharias-Randall style. How much more clear can it be?!?! The micro analysis and reading into statements and pulling out the minutia to suit your needs is not working for you. You have to understand, Gaddis when writing this stuff didn't think people were going to be up his ass over analyzing and questioning every friggin syllable 30 years after the fact. A good start would be to thoroughly read the material and not be so anxious to be "right" or should I say, attempt to prove someone else wrong.

2. Any other "Commando" that was a modified Hunter (Handle material notwithstanding): No resemblance to the knife in question!
You probably have more Commando photos that anyone else. In this thread I've asked you to post any other "Commando" with a likeness and you couldn't do this. If you want to see a likeness of the blade grind, go to Bob's book on page 50 / Photo 43 (Early 40's group of knives) third from the bottom!

As with the Zacharias fighter that morphed into the #1, so the early Commando morphed into a later Commando. Although not many were made, he used hunting blades he had in stock, clearly stated, to make them. That holds true with the stag Commando. He had it in stock ant threw it together as a fighter. I know of only two that have the center hump in the blade, on is mine the other is Clinton's. These knives are unique forgings, not a stock Hunter modified into a fighter. The other few out there are typical field knife grinds. One major difference though is the stag Commando has no finger relief on the top. Only one I have seen like that and not set up necessarily for edge up fighting, Bo's preferred style. You will also note it has a right hand sheath.

I also stated previously I do not know how to post photos here


Another problem I have is that the spacer set on the knife in question matches no other knives post the first half of '42!. It does, however match up pretty closely with knives from 1939-1941.

You are wrong. I clearly stated Tune's spacer stack is almost exact. Plus, with only 28 knives made from June to Jan, how many do you think you are going to see? You think he made the Zach in June 42 and there was a wholesale switch in his style?!? Like, "oh, I better change spacers now that I made a couple of fighting knives. I need to do this so nerd collectors 70 years from now will know"


The last and biggest problem I have with your assessment is the sheath":


If there is any doubt about it, the sheath is the clincher! However, earlier in this thread you pass it off when you say "I know the style of sheath would make us question the date, but that was the style Moore made for that blade grind, so it would stand to reason he would continue with that pattern in the short term". Would stand to who's reason, Joe? I think yours and yours alone. Saying this sheath was made after (1) The Zacharias sheath in Bob's book and (2) Tune's sheath because of the blade grind difference is stretching the facts to their breaking point.

Not in the least. It is apparent that the style of sheath is what Moore had made for that blade style. He had never made a sheath like Tune's until the Zach, and even that was not like Tune's. It was hand "stitched" I guess you would call it, but l think there is a name for it. It had leather stripping like a pair of Indian moccasins would have. That being said, a new style wasn't warranted for a his hunter blade double hilt or not. IT FIT!!

That brings me to to the hilt. That hit on the stag Commando is most definitely not his first fighter hilt, and looks nothing like his early hunter hilts. As a contrast, Scagel fighter hilts maintained the "oval" look, Bo's did not. They were a total departure from that style

Want to mention the "Zach sheath" as you call it pictured in Gaddis is typical of what the Moore fighter sheath was. I have 6 or 7 I think sitting in my sheath box. So it isn't an exciting find Ron, it was a sheath he made to accommodate a new blade grind. Pretty simple stuff.


The sheath to this knife is virtually identical to the sheaths made for earlier ('40 and '41) era knives like mine and Chuck's:

Uhhh, not the one below. That is a fold over stitched on one side.



Similar, but still no biggie. That knife could have been made in later '42 or maybe later '41, or maybe later '40. No way to tell 100%. I would consider though that it doesn't have a stepped choil, which could indicate a bit later in the range.



I've made a case that the grind, the spacer stack and the sheath are earlier than the Zacharias and I have offered hard facts.

Not facts Ron, opinion.

In this thread you blame me for "The fracture in the Randall knife community" like you were not a contributor! I love Randall knives and everything associated with them to include their history, and when I see actual facts distorted and twisted to be later assimilated into Randall history, I get serious about protecting the brand. Like the early 60's Heiser sheaths. Feel free to re-write Randall history, Joe. But know that it won't go unchallenged.

Ron
No, I did not blame you specifically Ron, it was general statement about the attitude(s) within the collecting community. For example, "Like the early 60's Heiser sheaths". What about them? Is there something that wasn't covered? Did you want to add to that discussion?

It seems there is allot of petty jealousy I suppose, I don't know what else it is. If someone offers another take on the fracture within the community, the floor is yours. All I know is, I came here with good intentions, thought I could add to the 14 thread. No problem there. This thread, because you don't like what is being said, by me, you attack, basically insult me as though I am being disingenuous, am a complete idiot, or out right lying. Now that you have brought is up, the problem is with you Ron. It doesn't happen on the other forum. Even get along with Jack for the most part until you chime in and I get the feeling he is savvy enough to try and stay out of it. I don't know why nor really care what has gone on with you to make you so angry, but your responses have been in very poor taste.

Last edited by crutchtip; 07-18-2017 at 09:49 PM.
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  #38  
Old 07-19-2017, 07:58 AM
BoBlade BoBlade is offline
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Joe,

I agree that Bo's description fit's Brian's knife in general, but it doesn't explain the spacer stack or the sheath to me.

Here is a better photo of Brian's stack:



I don't have a close up of Tune's stack to compare. There's a sticky thread at the top of this forum on how to post photos. If you're not able to figure it out, then just send me the photo by e-mail and I'll post it.

Agreed the blade "could" have been in storage. It also could have been forged and made into the knife with a period sheath we see prior to 1942.

On the sheath: It seems more logical to me that when Moore changed sheath designs, he didn't go back to an older design. He made each sheath to fit the exact knife. And he could have just as easily made a sheath in the new design to fit this knife if it was made in late '42.

I can't explain the hilt. In my scenario it should be oval.

I would much prefer to be in sync with you than argue with you. If the stacks stack up, then I'll apologize and thank you for contributing to the thread.

PS: Your comment about jealousy is laughable as is your blame game. Enough already.

Ron

Last edited by BoBlade; 07-19-2017 at 08:07 AM.
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  #39  
Old 07-19-2017, 12:17 PM
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Jacknola Jacknola is offline
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There are three discussions: in this line:

(1) Gen Hal Moore’s Randall and its fate; (

(2) Col Compton’s early fighter and his relationship with Bo Randall;

(3) the argument about Zach vs X knife.

Regarding #3, I won't mince words. I don’t know if I am “smart enough to stay out of” anything. I don’t consider myself knowledgable about WWII early fighters. However, I believe I have proved that open mind, sharp-eyed analysis, experience in technical investigations, can add a perspective about many Randall age-issues without the observer regarding himself as an "expert."
On this site we have a lot more discussions and sharing of information about historical Randalls than elsewhere. It has been rewarding and very productive… I believe it created understanding about many things never before addressed by RMK collectors:

- Heiser-Johnson sheaths,
- Blade stamps,
- Escutcheon plate chronology,
- Coulee cap/ flanged butt cap chronology,
- Model 14 Viet era numbers & etching and teeth, guard shapes, overlay of Solingen/Orlando teeth/standard model etc,
- Delrin,
- White Tenite,
- Vintage Bowie characteristics,
- etc.

We have had these discussions without significant conflict, just cooperation. Joe, you are welcome to help us and obviously have a lot to offer ... IF ... you could just find a way not to be combative about your positions.

Nothing takes place in a vacuum. You single-handedly waged a scorched earth campaign over the Heiser-Johnson sheath issue elsewhere. Yet today, most of the vintage collectors including Gary Clintion etc., have adopted the sheath theses presented by me and Ron. I believe if you reflect you will acknowledge you are using tenants of our theses in your authentications.

However during the discussion on the other board, to support your public contra-position, you posted no arguments, no documented analysis, no examples with a discussion explaining your position. I only saw some random pictures of sheaths that you declared X or Y unfortunately accompanied with a lot of personally directed comments. One result of that scorched earth campaign was the banning of a number of people from that site. Another is some long-lasting residual resentment ... especially about the way it was personalized. That has probably carried over into this issue. Yet all the ill-will could have been avoided by a simple respectful “I disagree…”

I would enjoy your participation in our lines of discovery here. But I would not enjoy logging on and reading collective abuse....I hate that. I will add that Ron habitually presents his considerable knowledge and expertise in collaborative ways, which is why we were able to progress the sheath discovery step by step on this site (wouldn't have happened elsewhere). But I suspect he is carrying the unnecessary scars from what happened on the other site, as am I.

I believe the tone of our discussions in the future can be healthy and hope you reflect on this heartfelt set of comments. It would probably help if we all review our comments before hitting "post." And I am probably "not smart enough to stay out" of a fight ... but why is a fight over intellectual judgement necessary?

Peace and prosperity, live long and prosper.

(2) Col Compton’s knife: I have been asked to turn the entire line about Gen Moore/Col Compton and the search for truth about Hal Moore’s Randall into a published article. Of course that would be with permission from Steve and Dave Moore. If I do write this mystery up, I would want to discuss Col. Compton’s knife in a bit more detail. It seems to be a little unique and an early example. I would love to hear more opinions about it while I find out when he was stationed in Florida… if at all.

(3) Regarding the Westmoreland presentation knife to Col. Moore... I will make a separate post.

Ciao and peace.

Last edited by Jacknola; 07-19-2017 at 02:18 PM.
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  #40  
Old 07-19-2017, 01:38 PM
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Jacknola Jacknola is offline
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Here is more about Col. Hal Moore’s mysterious presentation Randall. LTC Steve Moore believes Gen. Westmoreland may have presented that Randall to Col. Moore immediately after the conclusion of the battle of LZ X-ray. That battle was over about Nov. 16, 1965… and LTC Moore was promoted to full Col. On Nov. 23, 1965. But Westmoreland apparently flew up almost immediately after the battle was over. The DSC award for Col. Moore was dated 1 June 1966, months after Col. Moore's promotion. Obviously, the presentation of the Randall was long before that ceremony.

I previously noted the apparent old spacers, either late ‘40s or from the middle ‘50s. And I noted that it would be unusual for Westmoreland to acquire a 10-15 year old knife to present to Col. Moore in the middle of Vietnam in the very early buildup period. I speculated that the knife could have been a combat blade that Westmoreland himself had for a long time … replaced by his newer, more presentable ivory handle RMK.

LTC (ret) Steve Moore writes:

“Dad clearly loved the knife. The only thing certain is what he told my brother – Westmoreland gave it to him in VN. Westmoreland was an old airborne guy and, as the thread pointed out – they all had Randall knives. I bet this was Westmoreland’s personal knife he carried and he replaced with the ivory one. So maybe your point (4) in the thread maybe be correct – except he gave that knife to Dad in VN.

Dad did have a friendly relationship with Westmoreland from Bragg facilitated by COL Compton. Everyone knew each other there – Dad just did not work for Westy but Westy was a family friend. I remember seeing a letter on Westy’s 4 star stationery sent to Mom after Xray reassuring her that all was well with Dad and his troopers. So, it is not beyond belief Westy could have given Dad his own knife.”


All the pictures of Hal Moore with the Randall so far seem to show him wearing a full Col. insignia (and wearing that insignia means he was probably not in danger-close at that time of the photo … insignia were always covered in Vietnam, Korea, WWII whenever in close contact with the enemy…for obvious reasons.

What can help our search for the truth about General Moore’s Randall? Some better pictures might confirm if was old, or change the age estimate. Plus if the pictures were dated, we might get a handle on when it was presented to Col. Moore by Westmoreland. Here are more pictures of Westmoreland presenting DSC to Col. Moore.. better picture of knife but still cannot confirm details.





LTC Steve has forwarded additional pictures:

"Bong Son campaign… Feb 66… where he is wearing the standard bayonet."



"Another one taken when he was moving to join the fight at Lz 4 – too dark to tell" (my note: I am 90 percent certain he is wearing the Randall based on faint hilt location next to ammo pouch..) I LOVE this picture for a very human reason.. In the field in Vietnam, many of us in Special Forces at one time or another had a picture taken wading in streams, etc. I guess it was a carry over from Marine karma in WWII.. but in most cases it was mostly a kind of photo -op moment. Heck I have one somewhere too. And now I see even Colonels did the same thing...human nature.



"Here is another pic from the return to Xray" (wearing Randall)



"And here is a picture with his Bde staff. No date." (wearing Randall... wish I could get a high resolution scan of this original picture)



I too am leaning to the belief that Westmoreland gave Moore that knife immediately after X-ray battle. Hal Moore was promoted 7 days after the conclusion of the battle. Gen Westmoreland's early visit after the battle would have been a propitious time, especially if his visit was in conjunction with promotion. Col. Moore was obviously wearing the knife when he received that DSC … But I that ceremony was after 1 June 1966, long after he was already a full colonel .

If we can pictorially confirm that the knife was late ‘40s-mid’50s, then the romantic in me will always believe it was indeed the personal carried knife that had belonged to General Westmoreland. I will post additional pictures of the knife if we find some that can be enlarged to show details.

What can we tell about Gen. Moore’s Randall from the pictures so far? The brown sheath had a horizontal keeper, the knife appears to have wide spacers, commando shaped handle, and no pommel which indicates a handle of wood or other, not leather. This makes the knife pretty unusual for a late ‘40s or even mid-50's doesn't it? … a commando shaped wooden handle model 1 or 2 and if it was wood.. wouldn't it probably have been pinned?


Last edited by Jacknola; 07-20-2017 at 11:21 PM.
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  #41  
Old 07-19-2017, 02:41 PM
crutchtip crutchtip is online now
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This is in response to your prior post:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jacknola View Post
There are three discussions: in this line:

(1) Gen Hal Moore’s Randall and its fate; (

(2) Col Compton’s early fighter and his relationship with Bo Randall;

]3) the argument about Zach vs X knife.

Regarding #3, I won't mince words. I don’t know if I am “smart enough to stay out of” anything. I don’t consider myself knowledgable about WWII early fighters. However, I believe I have proved that open mind, sharp-eyed analysis, experience in technical investigations, can add a perspective about many Randall age-issues without the observer regarding himself as an "expert."
I presume the reference about the observer regarding himself as an "expert" is directed to me. Well, that would be nice, and I am probably considered an expert by some. Regardless of your perception or what you choose to think, I am the first one to accept any other perspective as long as it is presented well.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jacknola View Post

On this site we have a lot more discussions and sharing of information about historical Randalls than elsewhere. It has been rewarding and very productive… I believe it created understanding about many things never before addressed by RMK collectors:

- Heiser-Johnson sheaths,
- Blade stamps,
- Escutcheon plate chronology,
- Coulee cap/ flanged butt cap chronology,
- Model 14 Viet era numbers & etching and teeth, guard shapes, overlay of Solingen/Orlando teeth/standard model etc,
- Delrin,
- White Tenite,
- Vintage Bowie characteristics,

We have had these discussions without significant conflict, just cooperation. Joe, you are welcome to help us and obviously have a lot to offer ... IF ... you could just find a way not to be combative about your positions.
This is Ron's first statement after I declared the stag knife a Commando -

Quote:
Originally Posted by BoBlade View Post
your claim is ridiculous. It's put up or shut up time, Joe."


The second -

Quote:
Originally Posted by BoBlade View Post
"You refer to your memory of a conversation with Bob stating that there were no double hilt fighting knives made before the Zacharias (After he went through every entry in Bo's journal from 1940 through the 1st half of 1942?). That's not in the book, Joe! I dispute that claim of yours."
In the second not only do I have a failing memory, but I am a liar also.

Hmmm, who is combative?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Jacknola View Post
takes place in a vacuum. You single-handedly waged a scorched earth campaign over the Heiser-Johnson sheath issue elsewhere. Yet today, most of the vintage collectors have adopted the sheath theses presented by me and Ron, including Gary Clintion etc. I believe if you reflect you will acknowledge you are using tenants of our theses in your authentications.
I am not going to revisit that sheath debacle Jack, and I am not using any tenants from anyone. There were no new "discoveries" there, no new information. I have stated that countless times and even said so in one of my essays well PRIOR to any of that mess.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jacknola View Post
during the discussion on the other board, to support your public contra-position, you posted no arguments, no documented analysis, no examples with a discussion explaining your position. I only saw some random pictures of sheaths that you declared X or Y unfortunately accompanied with a lot of personally directed comments. One result of that scorched earth campaign was the banning of a number of people from that site. Another is some long-lasting residual resentment ... especially about the way it was personalized. That has probably carried over into this issue. Yet all the ill-will could have been avoided by a simple respectful “I disagree…”
Well, well. I beg to differ, and did I get a respectful "I disagree from any of your camp? Nope. It is a two way street.

Your recollection of my posts Jack are 110% incorrect. I supplied photographic evidence of everything. Even Gary Clinton's knives photo that was used show the difference between HKL and Johnson was clear, but nobody wanted to pay attention. It was more important to prove yourself right or someone else wrong. Not unlike Ron has responded to me in this thread.

I had no part in you or anyone else getting banned from the site. I don't own it, am not a moderator, not involved in any way, only a participant like everyone else. You should look in the mirror, did that to yourself Jack. FYI, I have lobbied a couple of times to get folks reinstated to no avail. Not my decision. Perhaps you could petition to get back on if you were so inclined. I would love this thread minus the bull#### to be posted over there. Like I said, it is one of the best threads I have seen in a long time.


I would enjoy your participation in our lines of discovery here. But I would not enjoy logging on and reading collective abuse....I hate that. I will add that Ron habitually presents his considerable knowledge and expertise in collaborative ways, which is why we were able to progress the sheath discovery step by step on this site (wouldn't have happened elsewhere). But I suspect he is carrying the unnecessary scars from what happened on the other site, as am I.

Not gonna beat a dead horse but I have no idea what "sheath discovery" you are speaking of.

I believe the tone of our discussions in the future can be healthy and hope you reflect on this heartfelt set of comments. It would probably help if we all review our comments before hitting "post." And I am probably "not smart enough to stay out" of a fight ... but why is a fight over intellectual judgement necessary?

I never wanted to argue with anyone. You read Ron's comments, and I said nothing to that effect. I didnt' question his intelligence or honesty because he thought differently. Yet, I was not afforded the same courtesy. I simply stated the knife was the earliest example of a Commando I have seen and more than likely the only extant example. BOOM! I am the butt head, I am stupid, dishonest, etc.

Peace and prosperity, live long and prosper.

(2) Col Compton’s knife: I have been asked to turn the entire line about Gen Moore/Col Compton and the search for truth about Hal Moore’s Randall into a published article. Of course that would be with permission from Steve and Dave Moore. If I do write this mystery up, I would want to discuss Col. Compton’s knife in a bit more detail. It seems to be a little unique and an early example. I would love to hear more opinions about it while I find out when he was stationed in Florida… if at all.

(3) Regarding the Westmoreland presentation knife to Col. Moore... I will make a separate post.

Ciao and peace.[/QUOTE]

This is a worthy endeavor for sure. If I can help I would be happy to discuss it and I would like to find a way to get this on the other forum.

Last edited by crutchtip; 07-19-2017 at 02:48 PM.
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  #42  
Old 07-19-2017, 02:52 PM
crutchtip crutchtip is online now
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Back to the knife. Moore's knife appears to be a model 2-6 or 7 w/o a buttcap win a baby dot. It would seem to be a micarta or wood handle. What say anyone else?

Last edited by crutchtip; 07-19-2017 at 03:11 PM.
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  #43  
Old 07-19-2017, 03:59 PM
BoBlade BoBlade is offline
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Joe,

The spacer sets are close enough. I am going to give you this one being the only early Commando with a stag handle. I did not fully factor in the hilt differential. I am also going to apologize for the couple of snarky comments I made. They are not worthy of this discussion.

I was sorely tempted to go off on your statement (1)"Regardless of your perception or what you choose to think, I am the first one to accept any other perspective as long as it is presented well" and (2) There were no new (sheath) discoveries, but I know what the outcome would be and I want to bury the hatchet and move on.

Ron
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  #44  
Old 07-19-2017, 06:58 PM
crutchtip crutchtip is online now
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Ron -

I appreciate you "giving me this one", I think. I don't believe the stag Commando pictured was the only one of its type made in that short period, we just don't know how many. Two? Five? Only the journals will offer that information. Gaddis does offer plurality when speaking of these knives, but we can be certain it wasn't many.

Thanks for the apology.

It has never been a contest for me about being "right" with an issue, but I sometimes believe that is the sole driving force for others once they are fixated on a certain point of view.

As for the HKL sheath issue, I am still amiss to any new information. We all new what was what, but it wasn't a point of contention. Was it historically accurate? Nope. Did it affect the price of that period of knife? Nope. I know many if not most folks still refer to a brown button sheath with an RMK stamp as a Johnson. Personally I don't make it a point to seek them out and correct them, but if I am part of a conversation, I will mention it. Most folks really don't care either way to this day. That is just the way it is
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Old 07-19-2017, 10:36 PM
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Jacknola Jacknola is offline
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"There were no new "discoveries" there, no new information" etc.

I've tried hard and waited and edited, counted to 10, and attempted to put it aside... Ron you may let it go but I'm not. Nor am I going to log in and be in a fight every single time whereas before it never happened.

Joe, this amazing statement and your subsequent denial, denigration, and devaluing of what was discovered and posted shows what we will get from you here... the same thing that was delivered there. Either you didn't read the data or you are seriously deficient in attention.

Since I have been reading these boards, you have been right some, but frankly you have been wrong about a ton... if you actually believe those ridiculous statements you made about the discoveries in the sheath line and your "contributions," I have no confidence in anything you say.

It is just a shame...because of the subject of this line, Gen. Moore, a lot of non-RMK people are following this and it is embarrassing what they are seeing. I for one can do without this. Just drop out of this line.
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