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Ed Caffrey's Workshop Talk to Ed Caffrey ... The Montana Bladesmith! Tips, tricks and more from an ABS Mastersmith.

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  #1  
Old 09-01-2012, 01:30 PM
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Julie Coffey Julie Coffey is offline
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Journeyman Smith Testing changes.

This was in the online ABS newsletter.

James Batson, ABS Chairman, has asked that I post this notice. I will also incorporate it into the standards posted on the website for Journeyman Smith testing.

"Effective immediately, applicants for the JS stamp must have a minimum of two knives among the five submitted with at least 6 inch blades, and all of the knives submitted must have guards/bolsters."

James Batson, ABS Chairman
August 28, 2012

Just curious Ed, what your take on the changes is, or anyone else for that matter?


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Old 09-01-2012, 02:05 PM
Doug Lester Doug Lester is offline
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Having just attended the ABS symposium at Troy, Ohio I would say that this has been long needed. Before it just seemed that a lot of these things that the judges were looking for was just a gentlemen's agreement between the master smiths. This feeling was only strengthened after taking the class on judging standards. An applicant for either level shouldn't have to consult with a master smith to see if his knives have all the elements that the judges will be looking for. It should be clearly stated in the requirements.

The ABS might also want to clear up the requirement for ricassos, if that hasn't been taken care of already. In the past, at least, it was "common knowledge" that a knife without a ricasso was not going to pass the test even though there was nothing in writing that required them.

I would recommend to the Board of Directors of the ABS that they examine the standards as applied by the judges and see if there are any other unstated requirements and rule on them officially one way or the other. There should be none of this "it's not in the standards but if you do this or don't do that your knife won't pass.

One other question that came up in the class was to the maximum length of the knives presented for testing, other than the knife presented for the cutting test. Neither of the presenters could say when the knife was too long and it seemed to be a subjective matter dependent on the judges present.

Doug


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Old 09-02-2012, 02:41 PM
Jeremy Jeremy is offline
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It would seem that the standards for JS testing can be a big can of worms... I've looked at them several times and had several conversations with folks from apprentice up to MS about presentation knives. All of which has led me to the personal decision of looking at a lot of knives that have passed and modeling mine (hopefully...) after those and not trying to think "outside the box" or to "wow" the judges. Simple, but executed very well...again, hopefully... .

With all of that in mind, I'm not sure what I think about the new requirement of the guards/bolsters. I'm completely fine with 2 of the knives needing to have blades of at least 6"-I suppose the more real estate a blade has, the more the maker has to control and be able to show that. One of the JS's on the ABS forum brough up a good point about the guard/bolster issue, saying it can be just as difficult to make a knife without those things and do it very well. In my fairly meaningless opinion, I wonder if they might have made the rule that 3 or 4 of the knives had to have guards/bolsters. That way, the judges have plenty to look at in order to make the decision whether or not the maker is skilled enough without all of the knives having to have a guard/bolsters.

BUT, regardless of any of what I think, the rules are the rules and when it comes time for me, I'll be doing as I said earlier. A good, safe bet on the design and style of the knives and doing everything I can to make them the best knives I'll have ever made.


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Old 09-02-2012, 03:34 PM
Doug Lester Doug Lester is offline
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Ok, the reason for all the testing is for the knife maker to show that s/he possesses the required skills to qualify for the level of certification that s/he is examining for, whether that be the ability to make a flaw free pattern welded blade, form a ricasso, or build and install a guard or bolster or whatever. Maybe the ABS standards should be changed to require blades with certain characteristics. That would be a blade of a certain shape, width and length with a certain type of tang and certain furniture. Then there would be a second or even a third knife with specific characteristics and certain minimal characteristics that they all must have.

The main thing is that there should be no unstated requirements, no judge's discretion as to whether a knife is too short or too long for judging or whether or not it must have a ricasso or a double bevel and what type of grind. No one judge judging the sheath that comes along with the knife and another judge ignoring it because it's not part of the knife. State everything up front as to what the maker is to display in his or her knives. Then the seven judges can decide by majority vote whether or not the minimum criteria have been met.

Doug


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Old 09-02-2012, 05:04 PM
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I'm following along with interest. I'd guess that these things come up now and then because someone got upset for having good execution but an overly simple design. There could probably be no denying if a 2" blade were true and two slabs were well formed and seamlessly attached, but if someone submitted five of those? I hope they carefully construct their guidelines, I can't help but think a few of the great recent test knives have been integrals. Still, it's a good thing to write the unwritten rules if they are going to be held to as rules. Nothing wrong with changing the rules too, if everyone (members) are in on the changes.

Interesting, Craig
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Old 09-03-2012, 05:19 PM
Jeremy Jeremy is offline
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Doug-

I definitely agree with your feeling of having any requirements noted. It would be a little bit of a hard pill to swallow for someone to take all the time effort and money spent to go test, then be told they failed because of something that wasn't in the stated requirements. I imagine there will always be "that guy" out there who has to try and game the system, but like you've said-putting something that judges consider a must to pass in the requirements is certainly a good thing. Hopefully, each addition to the rules made by the ABS will just bring more clarity on what's needed/wanted, making it easier for both the judges and the ones testing.


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Old 09-04-2012, 10:30 AM
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I've not spoken with anyone on the ABS Board about this, but an educated guess for the changes MIGHT be because of something I saw with this year's applicants for JS.....

One group of knives that was submitted were all "small knives" (I don't think any of them is the particular group were more than 4" blades.) and only 1 or 2 had guards.

The changes MIGHT have been due to something along the same lines as happened when the ABS "outlawed" damascus at the JS level testing.
That ruling came about because JS applicants were submitting sub-standard knives of damascus....then when we told them they had failed, the response was "But that's Damascus!! I made Damascus!!" It seemed as if the line of thinking on the applicant's part was that because they had successfully created damascus, but yet had sub-standard fit and finish, they should pass.

I SUSPECT that the same thing might have occurred with the required blade length and guard/bolsters.

Any of you that have been to my shop for a class have heard me say "Start out making shorter length blades, because as the length of a blade increases, the difficulty of everything else increases too." Again, MY SUSPICION is that somebody circumvented the intent of the JS testing rules by presenting knives without guards, and that were very short bladed....which means a lesser level of skill was required to get everything "right".
I believe the changes are simply clarification, and an attempt to further define the rules.....most of the time this happens when someone seeks to, and successfully "games" the rules for the test(s).

I hope that makes some sense....to further explain, every single year I get emails and phone calls for potential JS testers who are trying to "game" the rules...comments such as "Well, the rules don't say I CAN'T do this!" Which is why I always tell people to read the rules.....don't try to add to, or subtract anything from them.....take them at face value....they say what they mean, and mean what they say. Part of this whole journey is also following the "spirit and intent" of the testing rules. The ABS is not trying to play any games, nor hide anything.....they are simply trying to maintain the given standard.

A final example is: Suppose an individual achieves his/her MS rating, but has "gamed" the rules in order to get there.......that does nothing but dilute/water down what that MS ranting means.....and I certainly would be offended if that person who made their MS through what I would consider to be "trickery" were setting next to me at a show.

Every time something like this occurs, it's almost always because something frustrating, occurred during judging, and the individual(s) in question have tried to "game" the rules.


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Old 09-04-2012, 12:53 PM
Doug Lester Doug Lester is offline
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Ed, I hesitate to comment because I don't want this to degenerate to the point that it did on the Bladesmiths Forum, but I just have to ask. How do you game rules that don't exist?, The ABS doesn't have much of anything in the way of rules as far as testing goes, what it has mainly is a consensus of opinion among the master bladesmiths that form the pool the judges are chosen from and very little is actually written down.

Maybe it's because I worked in an environment for 40+ years where if something wasn't written down it never happened and if a rule wasn't in writing it didn't exist. I know that that may sound too super legalistic to you but that's how it was. What I see is things like the common knowledge requirements for things like blade lengths, ricassos, and levels of finish and nothing in writing except that two of the five blades shall be at least 6 inches long and those rules are less than a week old. The problem with that is that they are not always common knowledge and are there are no resources where they can be looked up, by anyone. When I was at Troy the weekend before last I asked what the maximum allowed length of a blade was and, basically, the answer was that he , the co-presenter, didn't really know but he was sure he would recognize it. Maybe it would be the same as the restrictions for the cutting test, he just wasn't sure.

This was not an ignorant man. He's a well known and respected mastersmith to you and many others. He just had no way of knowing; nowhere to check. Nothing is written about it. All he could possibly do is grab a bunch of other mastersmiths and try to form a consensus, which would still be totally nonbinding. The other presenter guaranteed that if an applicant tried to go just by the rules there was virtually no chance of passing the test. None of the examples of good or bad knives that he sketched on the board had support in writing. I've gone to the ABS site to check the written standards for the JS test as of 2010 and I see nothing that would disqualify a knife with a badly warped blade, not even by implication. This would be a knife that I would be ashamed to let out of my shop and I can find nothing in the rules posted on the ABS site that would disqualify it.

I know, I've had people tell me that it would be far too hard to address all the little details that come with judging the quality of a knife. It would make the rules too restrictive and cumbersome. To me that just an excuse to do nothing until the ABS finds itself having to put out another forest fire, again.

Ed, I'm a hobbiest knife maker. I can't foresee any circumstances that would lead me to becoming a professional. Having a stamp to me is nothing than bragging rights. Having to subject myself, my time, and my limited money to a subjective judging process is unavoidable if I want to qualify for a stamp. Adding arbitrary to the mix is totally unacceptable. I went to Troy a week ago last Thursday considering joining the ABS and left the following Sunday with the feeling that it wasn't worth all the potential headache. How many other members has the ABS lost by springing these unwritten rules on them? How many applicants have left the judging with the opinion that the ABS, collectively, was the south end of a herd of north bound horses? From the comments of some of the people present at the judging standards class, there been more than a few.

Yes you are very correct that there are people out there that will always try to game the process. The way it looks to me is that the way the ABS handles it's judging it makes the problem worse, not better.

How the ABS runs itself is up to it's members and the Board of Directors. However, until they start doing a better job of it, they'll do it without my money and support.

If anyone wants to take up any of these issues with me, I request that you do to by private email. I've said all that I intend to say in a public form about this matter. Depending on the content of your mail, I may or may not reply to you. I ask that you all respect that.

With deep respect,
Doug


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Old 09-04-2012, 04:23 PM
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Doug,

You make a lot of good comments, and many of them are the same things folks who newly join the ABS ask.
Quote:
What I see is things like the common knowledge requirements for things like blade lengths, ricassos, and levels of finish and nothing in writing except that two of the five blades shall be at least 6 inches long and those rules are less than a week old. The problem with that is that they are not always common knowledge and are there are no resources where they can be looked up, by anyone.
I see where you're coming from with the above statement. The entire set of rules for both JS and MS are always available on the ABS website: JS rules: http://www.americanbladesmith.com/index.php?section=pages&id=172

MS rules: http://www.americanbladesmith.com/in...n=pages&id=178

Quote:
I see nothing that would disqualify a knife with a badly warped blade, not even by implication. This would be a knife that I would be ashamed to let out of my shop and I can find nothing in the rules posted on the ABS site that would disqualify it.
You are correct, to a point....but part of the "journey" to either the JS or MS rating is through what many of us call, "Doing your homework". The ABS never has, nor will they ever "spoon feed" anyone.....it's expected that if an individual chooses to go down the path for JS or MS, he/she is going to take the time to converse with various Mastersmiths, read and understand the rules as they apply to whichever level being tested for, and to learn/understand that the ABS is looking for "ABS Style" knives, particularly when it comes time to lay your knives out for Presentation/Judging.

Quote:
I see nothing that would disqualify a knife with a badly warped blade, not even by implication.
Here's a "cut-n-paste" section from the Judging rules posted on the ABS website:
BLADE CONSTRUCTION:
Flatness, bevels, and finishes are to be uniform. Blade surfaces must be free from
scratches. Satin, buffed or hand rubbed finishes, are acceptable. A distal taper
will provide good balance and feel to the completed knife.

That snippet should be very clear that a warped blade isn't going to be "flat" (ness).
Again, just my experience talking here, and I certainly am not the spokesman concerning ABS rules, just giving you my insight from a lot of years as a Member.

Quote:
I know, I've had people tell me that it would be far too hard to address all the little details that come with judging the quality of a knife. It would make the rules too restrictive and cumbersome. To me that just an excuse to do nothing until the ABS finds itself having to put out another forest fire, again
Personally, I think it would be impossible to have every possible "thing" that a person could dream up addressed by the rules....that would be far too cumbersome, and it would require there be no personal creativity allowed....which is just opposite of what the ABS wishes.

Quote:
Having a stamp to me is nothing than bragging rights
Nothing wrong with that statement/opinion, it's simply a matter of internal desire on a individual's behalf that wants to take the road to JS and MS ratings.
For many people (myself included) the JS and MS ratings did/do have an great impact on selling knives. Prior to achieving my MS rating, taking an order for a knife often involved very long phone conversations, drawing back and forth, and a number of other things. After achieving my MS rating, that all changed....people who wanted one of my knives would simply call me, and make a statement that went/goes something like....."I want to order a XXX knife, and I'd like to have XXX handle material.....just keep it under $XXXX. That's the type of order that allows me to be creative and almost always when a client gives me those types of simple parameters, they end up with my best work. I'm not saying that I ever allow anything substandard out of the shop, but I have much more fun, and excitement when a client allows me to be creative.
I would have to say that for most people, their level of knife sales, and the prices they charge do not change all the much when the JS rating is achieved. However, at the MS level, there are just over 100 individuals worldwide which hold that rating, which makes for a fairly elite group of Knifemakers, and in turn means very much to many Clients/Knife buyers.

Quote:
How many applicants have left the judging with the opinion that the ABS, collectively, was the south end of a herd of north bound horses?
Oh, I know there have been a number of individuals who have failed and had that thought. One year when I was judging I had an indvidual yell "FXXX You! about 6" from my face after I broke the news to him that his knives did not pass.
Historically those same individuals who do that, simply do not do it for the "right" reasons, nor have they taken the whole process seriously.....I've actually asked individuals who have failed, what prompted them to apply/test for their JS? In more cases then most realize, the answer is something like "Well, my sister's friend's brother did it, so I though I would give it a shot...the problem therein is that whomever that individual might be/have been, tested for the wrong reasons, and obviously did not have the drive, desire, or skill set to meet the challenge.
The JS and MS road isn't for everyone, and it's not a task/journey that anyone should take lightly and expect to pass.

Quote:
The way it looks to me is that the way the ABS handles it's judging it makes the problem worse, not better.
I have to respectfully disagree on that statement. I understand that the judging is subjective, but any MS I've ever worked with as a fellow judge in Atlanta or San Antonio, always has two things on their minds when actually judging..... 1. It's known and accepted that there will be "flaws" in most JS presentation knives. Our job as judges is to make the tough calls as to whether the flaws are of a great enough magnitude as to fail someone.
2. Are these knives (the ones being presented for judging) up to the standards of the JS level, meaning that if they were on a show table, next to another JS's knives, would the standard of craftsman ship be up to the standard.

I don't think you're being argumentative, nor disrespectful, I just think that you might not fully understand the process...which is very often the case with many JS applicants until they've been through it. The "homework" thing that I mentioned in my previous post carries far more importance then most realize.

In the end, it's up to each individual whether they want to go down the road of achieving a JS and an MS rating. If a person finds no benefit, then that's OK....but if a person does take the road to JS and/or MS, there's much more to it then just making a performance test blade, and 5 presentation knives.
Thanks for posting all of that Doug. I think asking those types of question is completely legitimate.


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Old 09-05-2012, 01:33 AM
cdent cdent is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Doug Lester View Post
......Having a stamp to me is nothing than bragging rights. Having to subject myself, my time, and my limited money to a subjective judging process is unavoidable if I want to qualify for a stamp. Adding arbitrary to the mix is totally unacceptable. I went to Troy a week ago last Thursday considering joining the ABS and left the following Sunday with the feeling that it wasn't worth all the potential headache. How many other members has the ABS lost by springing these unwritten rules on them? How many applicants have left the judging with the opinion that the ABS, collectively, was the south end of a herd of north bound horses? From the comments of some of the people present at the judging standards class, there been more than a few.....

Honestly, I think the important part is you were able to stay all weekend. If someone really wants or values a membership or stamp, I figure they go and get it. Nothing wrong if it's not for everyone. I see shortcomings, but I'm willing to support the ABS based on what I think are benefits.
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Old 09-05-2012, 10:48 AM
Doug Lester Doug Lester is offline
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Ok, I know that I'm breaking my own rule again but the seminar, on the whole, was great and I would consider going again. It was the sudden realization of how poorly the judging is run that was a real turn off. You may take exception to me saying the the judging process is handled poorly but I don't know how else to see it. I have shown dogs in obedience and confirmation and I have competed in archery and have belonged to the organizations running these activities. With all of these activities there was never a question that couldn't be looked up in a rule book but the ABS judges people on requirements that are written no where, everyone just understands these things. I'm also not buying that all this is too detailed to set down in writing. To me it means that no one is interested in trying or it has been attempted by people who could complicate the recipe for mud.

I honestly think that the ABS is really shooting itself in the foot with they way it handles judging. I'm quite certain I'm not the only one who has attended the presentation on judging standards and has been turned off. I have had people admit that applicants often have left angry. How often does this have do to being informed that they had not complied with some unwritten standard? I know that people leaving mad cannot be totally avoided. There will always be small people who won't accept things not going their way. Like someone who leaves a dog show complaining that the only reason their animal didn't win best of breed was because the judge favored established kennels or the archer who claims it was someone else's fault that they shot an extra arrow and didn't mark in down resulting in their entire score being thrown out. I think that the ABS only makes things worse by judging against unwritten standards.

Don't go thinking that I think that the ABS is being deliberately unfair. I honestly believe that they are wanting to be as fair a possible. However, they have established a system that is inherently unfair with a high potential for being arbitrary.

As far as my relationship with the ABS, I will be more than happy to spend my money and time attending future seminars if I am able. I also have l list of videos that I plan to purchase from them. I might also consider saving up the money to attend one of it's classes. However, trying for a stamp is an expensive proposition and I am not willing to risk my time, effort, and money with a system where I'm subject to unwritten standards and possibly arbitrary treatment. If I have no intention of testing then I see no reason to join.

Now I'm really, really, really going to try to make this my last public response.

Doug


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Old 09-05-2012, 11:36 AM
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Hey Doug, I'm not directing this towards you or trying to get a response. I've never been to a testing standards seminar in person, but I have one of the ABS dvd's about what the judges look for in the presentation knives. There are very particular recommendations about the form and symmetry of an ABS style handle, but I can think of very asymmetrical examples that have passed.

There have been a few folks willing to comment on the forums about failing the presentation and it seems to come down to fit and finish issues often due to time management, if the tester was in the ballpark. I think variation is allowed, but I think it needs to be done well and with a purpose, and not to cover up for a mistake. Just thoughts I have when looking at pictures of actual test knives whenever I get a chance.
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Old 09-05-2012, 01:22 PM
Doug Lester Doug Lester is offline
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No problem, I was even guilty in my response of using the word "you" intending it to mean a non-specific individual person or group when it could just as easily been meant to referr to you specifically. That was not intended, though it would have been quite fine with me if you had be expressing disagreement. Heck, I've been married three times. I'm used to being disagreed with.

Doug


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Old 09-05-2012, 08:09 PM
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All I can say after the last few posts is what I've already said.....ABS membership may not be everybody's cup of tea, and that's OK. It does require time, money, and commitment if the intent is to achieve a JS or MS rating.

It's certainly one of those things that you get out of it, what you put in it. There are no guarantees, and the responsibility for passing or failing testing for a rating rests squarely on the individual's shoulders.


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Old 09-10-2012, 05:35 PM
Ed Fowler Ed Fowler is offline
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Doug: You should have been around when the ABS started. It was a dynamic outfit. Performance was the main goal, today it bears no resemblance to what it was or could have been.


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