anvils, anvils and coyotes!

[EdStreet]

Ok just teasing about the coyotes part as I get ask that often when I speak of anvils to people. Also while on coyotes it seems that many anvils out there could be lumped into the POS/crapy group that seems to only be designed for that coyote to use and not for us to use!

Having said that I have been doing plenty of digging around and came up with several. First I do not have loads of money to dump into an anvil but I can spend $400-$600ish easy. From my searches I have ruled out the grizzly anvils which I could get a 300 pound anvil for $300 but what annoys me is the horn shape it just does not seem right.

I also dug up some other names: NC Tool, Cliff Carrol, Delta, Nimba (out of the price range and possible upgrade for what I get now), JHM, Peter Wright (no way I can afford one of these and most certain an upgrade to a starting anvil).

The Cliff Carroll seems to be more horse specialty with a very funky shape on the horn, does not seem like that would be much usable to me in making knives. 70lbs, Price ranges: $270-$290

Delta has a nice looking shape to it but it has an aluminum base which from looking at it does not seem like it would hold up to much abuse over time, esp that base. 68 lbs and 98 lbs. price ranges: $620 - $650.

The NC tool seems to make a good selection, most seem to be 'optional' additions to base models but I could be wrong here, someone want to expand on this please? There is the Sugar, Cavalry, NC and Big face. Looks like 70 lbs and 112 lbs. Price range: $230 - $410. I am adding the NC, big face and sugar to the potential candidate list.

JHM. Now here is one that I seemed to fall in love with immediately after looking at it. Not sure why but something about the shape seems to indicate it was designed to take a beating and after looking at it I have this big urge to take a hammer to it. I am refering to the Journeyman #1. weight on this one is 125 lbs and price is $600. It is at the high end on prices but doable.

However my concerns are this, if I get the JHM will I see much difference over the NC tool selection? For the price difference I could sink the difference into a good stand for the NC one and have some left over.

This is the 112 lbs cavalry anvil by NC tool. It is $385.


This is the 125 lbs JHM journeyman. It is $602.

So which one is better for knife making?

Ed

[SBuzek]

ED
Check out these
http://emersonhorseshoe.net/shop/cat...e24253a734baca
I have the 200 lb traditional and it is a good anvil made from solid 4140.
Stan

[Ray Rogers]

I just wanted to comment on your mentioning an anvil looked like it could take a beating. Even though I don't really forge much I do own a 504 lb Vaughn-Brooks. In researching anvils before I bought it I learned that you don't want a cast iron anvil (that's what's wrong with the Grizzly more than the horn shape), and you don't ever hit the anvil with your hammer. You hit the hot steel, not the anvil so most any anvil used properly can 'take a beating'.

A general rule of thumb is that your anvil should weigh a minimum of 40 times the weight of the heaviest hammer you will use regularly. Other people use other rules but they all pretty much end up with a minimum anvil weight of 120 to 160 pounds. Smaller anvils can work too but they may move around too much.

After that, look for something made of cast steel or, in the older anvils, cast iron with a steel face. This will help you get the rebound that is desirable and one of the things lacking in cast iron anvils. The shape doesn't matter a lot for knife making - I've seen anvils that were just rectangles, no horn at all. Some guys embed a piece of railroad track in a block of cement and do just fine.

I love anvils but I don't need one very much. Could have bought a smaller, cheaper anvil and done just fine but at the time I was cash rich so I got what I wanted rather than what I needed. Keep that in mind while you're shopping ...

[EdStreet]

So based on those numbers the 112 lbs cavalry can take a 2.8 lb hammer while the JHM journeyman can take a 3.125 lbs hammer. I do have a 3.3 lbs swiss hammer on order to.

This begs the question, which one of these 2 will make less work given the same type of metal? There any advantages of one over the other?

[blacksmith101]

I have had a J H M Journeyman #4 for years. I used it for making shoes and blades both. It has done a great job of both. I ended up making an anvil that would better suit my needs. Just make sure that you buy the best you can afford. If you hate using it you will be putting up with it for a long time. Take a look at my shop tour/(custom anvils) to get an idea of whats possible with a little work and not much money. The one anvil weighs in at 510# that I built from steel and topped with 1" of tempered 4140 and the second one was made from a Cat wheel loader cutting edge section. This is the one I use the most. I can hammer out a 3" by 18" blade and not have to worry about getting it straight. I have adapted one end for angles and curves. Just a thought. All it takes is a little work and not much money. Merle.

[son_of_bluegras]

That whole "40 X the weight of the hammer" thing has more to do with the way the anvil responds to the hammer blow than any damage done to the anvil by using too big a hammer. Unless you are swinging a sledge on the horn or heel, or miss your target frequently any anvil that isn't cast iron will likely out last you. The better (more securely the anvil is attached to its stand, the more it will act like a heaver anvil. Before I securely attached mine (110 lbs) to its stand, it would walk under a 3 pound hammer, now it will take a 4.
The primary market for both of those anvil you are leaning towards is the horseshoer. Both will work for other things.
If you will be doing knives, you may never use the horn or heel. Some people make nice knives on stake anvils, essentially a large chunk of steel set in a stump.

ron

[dbalfa]

I can speak with relative authority on anvils...made my living with one for a quite a while.
JHM's excellent, Delta is excellent, NC Tool is good. You would not go wrong with any of those. Emmerson is the best blacksmithing anvil you mentioned. That would fall under bladesmithing as well.
Don't let the aluminum base on a Delta throw you, I know of professional farriers that have beat on those far more than you will with far more abuse for years and would trade you their wives before they let you have the anvil.

The biggest thing most folks don't pay enought attention to is the stand, stand/anvil attachment. You can take the most expensive one you can buy, put it on a sorry stand and you would be cussing it immediately. And the opposite is true to a point. The second is horn shape/size. The horns on the Emmerson and JHM blacksmith anvils are ideal. Most others are "compromise" shape horns made for farriers, but they can work if you learn how.

If I were buying today, JHM or Emmerson would be MY first choice, Delta's are great but they are designed to be taken in/out of a truck and the aluminum base is pricey. If price is an issue, the NC Tool anvils are good and solid. I've been beating on one now for 17 years....

[EdStreet]

Ahh yes thanks for the info Dennis. As for the stand goes I was thinking a 18 x 18 x 18 made with 6x6x18 lumber and get some rods, bend into a U shape and anchor the anvil to it. I could also toss in a bag or 2 of concrete with rebar.

[dbalfa]

for stands-Solid is the key, more solid=more better-to a point. You also want something that will "soak up" some of he impact forces; for instance if you put an anvil on another solid piece of steel weighing 1000#, it would be solid but it would wear you out, reverberate the forces back up your hammer into your hand/elbow/shoulder. A good anvil will transfer a high percentage of the force you apply back toward you (one of Newton's laws, I forget which one) That's why over the centuries a big ole' hickory stump has been a common stand= good and solid but acts like a little bit of force sink. Also, the stand can help reduce ringing - which is a unfortunate by product of a solid anvil. (addendum - Delta's don't ring, due to the aluminum base- soaks it up) Anvil design also contributes to ringing. Thinner healed anvils will ring more, etc. Some folks put a round magnet on the base to help reduce ringing- sorta works. The best thing is a good solid attachment that transfers those vibrations down into the stand. I use a mobile metal stand I fabricated and place it on a rubber horsestall mat on my concrete shop floor. The anvil sits on a thin piece of conveyor belt in the stand. It would be best if I anchored this to the floor somehow.

Your idea of a "stacked lumber" stand has been used and can work, although most I've seen don't last for years, depends on how much you use it. Make sure you have an adjustabled attachment so you can crank it tighter as your loosen it with hammering-and you will. You'd be surprised how much force you lose when your anvil is loose on the base.

The stand doesn't neccesarily have to be heavy or big, just solid and hold the anvil still and tight. Also don't want the anvil stand skating around the floor.

You can look at farrier supply websites/catalogs as they all have different ideas for stands they sell. Georgia Farrier Supply is a favorite place of mine to shop over the years. They have a website. Also have G&H Farrier supply there in Georgia.

As has been said earlier by some others, for knife forging, a big, long face is perhaps of most importance, so when considering your anvil, look for those features and look at thicker heels which will make a longer face easier to work on. A thin heal is good for some things but would be too springy for constant flat forging as you would do bladesmithing.

[EdStreet]

Ah, well my original design is to take lag bolts and washers then tie each of the 6x6x18 lumber together into one solid stand. The reason for 18" cube is the anvils I have looked at are 11" high and 28" off the ground would be easier on the back while hammering stuff. The base on these are 11 x 9 so I figured for good coverage would need a min of 14 x 12 and it would be easier to cut lumber that size into 18" lengths and make a cube out of it.

From what you just said a short heavy thick table should be good or better than the cube.

I did crunch some numbers as well. These prices include shipping btw.

The cavalry anvil is 4 5/8 x 7 face 112pounds, 32.38 sq in face, $3.88 per pound; $13.44 per sq inch (face)
JHM journeyman is 4 x 16.5 face and 125 lbs, 66.00 sq in face, $5.38 per pound; $10.18 per sq inch (face)

From this if I would be using just the flat face then journeyman should be the better selection, however if using other parts like the horn etc.. the cavalry should be better.

[dbalfa]

Stand height is very important to consider for your elbow longevity. When you stand beside your anvil, standing upright, you should be able to gently rest you closed fist on the face with a slightly, ever so slightly bent elbow. This height will keep your elbow in better shape. When you swing your hammer, don't let your elbow "fly" outside your body. Keep it close, almost hit your ear with your hammer. Use more of a swinging shoulder action than a bending/extending elbow action. Use your wrist but don't force with it, let the hammer do the work.

When you bend over, bend at the waist, don't bow your back.

There are all "sins" of blacksmithing - then the BIG sin- hitting cold steel! NEVER hit cold steel!

Trust me on all of these as I am now paying for the "sins" of my past.

If I were buying an anvil for what you want, of the two you just mentioned, the JHM is the one to get. You won't regret it 20 years from now. If you want to step it up, look at Emmerson.

[EdStreet]

Journeyman it is!!

I have a tree that needs to come down by the shop. It's maple (red?), around 65" around (approx 20" in diameter) would be perfect if I used the stump for the anvil stand It's hard wood, its not going to be moving any at all. Would just have to anchor the anvil to it.

BTW there has been some super good info posted in this thread, should have some collection for reference somewhere to threads like this one.

[ranger1]

I have a NC Tool Calvery 112lbs. I love it. I also have a 300lb'er made from the arms off a car lift. The NC tool is a great anvil. As for face size you only use as much face as your hammer will cover at any given time.

[Doug Lester]

For those of you who are looking for an anvil and insist on something like a European pattern, look at Old World Anvils. My experience with both the seller and his products have been very good and he has found a manufacturer of forged steel anvils that won't break the budget, at least not quite as fast. I got a quote for a piece of 4x4 4140 annealed steel from Southern Tool Steel, I think I asked for 18" long, for less than $300. I also inquired about the same size post but hardened and tempered, but that's another issue. I know that a post anvil lacks a horn which, though I do find handy on occasions, isn't necessary. Most of them also lack a hardy hole but that can be gotten around with a leg vice. Some smiths who use a post anvil have stated that their European style anvils have pretty much been religated to hardy tool holders.

Doug Lester

[EdStreet]

As for that goes I have looked at this one to.

http://www.oldworldanvils.com/anvils/4x4.html

The 4x4 Anvil is a piece of 4140 tool steel approximately
4" x 4" x 4". The 4x4 weighs 17 to 20 lbs and is heat-treated and ground smooth on two sides. The remaining 4 sides are left as forged, which gives you 4 nicely rounded corners to work on and 8 squared edges.

Not bad for $85.