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Ed Caffrey's Workshop Talk to Ed Caffrey ... The Montana Bladesmith! Tips, tricks and more from an ABS Mastersmith.

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  #16  
Old 11-18-2011, 06:39 PM
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Ed Caffrey Ed Caffrey is offline
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Quote:
And the question you have to ask yourself is this:

Which is better......sell 1 knife for $400 or 6 knives at $100?
That might be an option for someone who is fairly new to the custom knife world, but it doesn't work for someone like me, who has been around for a while, and has a reputation for hunters starting in the $400 range.......it's an odd phenomenon...I could cut the cost of those knives to barely make materials and time, and they would not sell......I know because I've tried. I can't say for sure, but my suspicion is that when a potential client sees one of my hunters for $200-$250, they must be saying to themselves "what's wrong with it?"

I just don't know. Like most others, I'm trying different things.....I'll either stumble upon the answer or go broke trying to figure it out!


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  #17  
Old 11-18-2011, 07:37 PM
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My thoughts exactly Ed.

Honestly I don't know how anyone that does decent work can sell a knife of a hunter size for $200.

Forge/grind the blade, hand sand it, fit a guard up nicely or taper the tang on a full tang and a decent wood handle and you're probably already over $200. And thats without any embellishment.

I know it's tough even for me to make a hunter for that and I'm just working my way up to decent knives.


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  #18  
Old 11-18-2011, 08:12 PM
Jeremy Jeremy is offline
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For one who's never sold a knife and only attended my first show last month, this is a very interesting topic to read. I appreciate the insights and experience that's been shared.

Ed-It's almost like you're stuck between a rock and a hard place . On the one hand, I can see some logic to lowering the price, but on the other, I couldn't have imagined standing in front of your table and seeing $100-$200 tags on several of your forged pieces. In a way, that "MS" stamp on the blade automatically means your knives are going to be priced higher and if they were listed that low, I would've been scratching my head wondering why.....

John-You also bring up a good point on time and materials. I'm still new enough that molasses in January is somewhat appropriate for me, but I can at least have an appreciation for the time and effort it takes to get the fit and finish that should be reached for. And I suppose a cheap piece of wood for the handle could keep costs under control better, but it seems everyone likes something at least a little "fancy" if they're buying a custom knife. Throw in nice wood or other material, or stabilized woods and now the costs are going back up.... Oh, and John-that comment about "and I'm just working my way up to decent knives".....liar!

Regardless of the answer, I simply hope things get better sooner than later. It seems the economy, jobs, housing, etc. effect a whole lot of people in a whole lot of ways. Here's to hoping you all get some good orders for Christmas.


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  #19  
Old 11-21-2011, 08:44 AM
Craig B. Craig B. is offline
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I remember reading an article in Blade years ago about on old gentleman in his 70's or 80's who went around the country attending fairs, craft shows, and such who sold knives with sayings he hand burned into the wood for $10 a knife. No sheath if I recall just wrapped in brown craft paper.

His yearly sales topped most custom makers of the day.

All done with $10 handmade knives. Not only that but he had a huge following of people because they were not only unique, but affordable.

I talked recently with a custom maker at a gunshow who told me he couldn't hardly sell a knife. So, he started taking scraps and made little knives in the 1-3 inch blade length with elk tip handles he had cut off when making his regular knives.....this is what he had to do in order to make any money at all as the knives were not selling enough to make expenses. He said he could sell enough of the novelty knives to make expenses and sometimes come out ahead. At 1 show I believe he told me he sold close to 100 of them...priced at $10-$20 per knife complete with sheath made from scrapes of leather. Everything was made from scraps and he was doing well with them. He made them in batches and said he could make about 10 an hour on average, not bad wages considering everything he was using was scrap materials.

All I'm saying is sometimes we get caught up thinking we should do things a certain way at a certain price and overlook opportunity which is smacking us right in the face.

Ed, I'd almost bet money that if you were to do something along that line and put your name on it you wouldn't be able to keep them in stock at the shows. All done with scraps that most of us would end up throwing away or taking to the recycling center.

Desperate time call for desperate measures. These are desperate times....only those willing to take desperate measure will survive.....I know most don't want to hear this but that is the reality of things.

I wish the roaring days of custom knife collecting would return....reality is it's probably seen it's better days at least in the short term. So, custom makers who want to stay in the game will need to find new ways to survive or else shut their doors.

Just my opinion.


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  #20  
Old 11-21-2011, 08:53 AM
Craig B. Craig B. is offline
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I need to mention that the old gentleman in the Blade article if I remember right was using blade materials he cut from bandsaw blades thrown in the dumpster at a local factory and I believe maybe birchwood handles he cut and dried himself. So, he had virtually nothing in cost. No polishing of the blades or nothing, just cut them out with a chisel, ground the shape out on a regular bench grinder not a sander, sharpened the edge pinned the handle with no glue and had less than $1 in cost. And of course now days the price would probably have to be closer to the $20-$25 price range to include inflation but you get the picture of what the article was meant to convey.


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  #21  
Old 11-21-2011, 09:56 AM
cdent cdent is offline
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Originally Posted by Craig B. View Post
....And of course now days the price would probably have to be closer to the $20-$25 price range to include inflation but you get the picture of what the article was meant to convey.

Good thoughts above, but I think it's tough to put too much emphasis on materials cost. I recall talking to Ed about tracking down popular handle wood for maybe six dollars a block and known 1084 might cost three dollars for a hunter. Less than ten dollars for quite an upgrade, but it doesn't account for time required, and other overhead.

I think that extends to other areas, just as you have mentioned that your work has taken priority over much of your time. I think there are ways to increase production numbers, but it may matter what type of product one ends up with. That price range is in the walmart, bargain import territory and I suspect it takes time to some degree or another to offer 'better' or 'unique', etc.

Definitely just thoughts, Craig
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  #22  
Old 11-21-2011, 11:57 AM
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Ok first things first. I have to agree with Jeremy, John is fibbing again. Never met the man and have only seen his work here, but he is one of my heroes. Unless you are talking stag, oosik or mammoth ivory then material cost is fairly incidental. What a customer is paying for is labor and skill particularly when there is an MS after the name. So on the $400 knife versus the 6 $100 knives question. What took the most time? If 6 knives took longer than 1 knife then there is no profit there. There is more in gross sales but less in net profit. If we are running our business as a business we have to assign our time a $ value. I once read a university study (UC Davis) that stated the number one cause for small business failure was the owner not putting a $ value on their time. I think that is true. So what do we do? I wonder if we are stuck in a rut. Face it we're all a bunch of traditionalists I'm betting. So traditionally a guy sells a knife at a knife show. But is it the venue not the product that is the issue. So what worked the last few decades is that working now? Maybe no. Are we doing enough to promote ourselves in non traditional formats? Do we all have websites? Do we have Facebook pages? How do we advertise? In advertising are we preaching to the choir? Gotta make new converts maybe. That buddy of mine has already sold 2/5ths of the product that he took to the show and its only been 1 week. So again is it the venue? But to adapt maybe we have to diversify too. Can we take a chunk of damascus scrap and grind it into an oval put it on a silver chain and call it a pendant. Sell it for $25 and $50 with matching ear rings. Just thinking out loud here of course. All good thoughts here from everybody.


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