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High-Performance Blades Sharing ideas for getting the most out of our steel.

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  #16  
Old 08-29-2004, 12:40 PM
shgeo shgeo is offline
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The post cryo-temper is to treat the new Martensite. If you do multiple temper/cryo steps, at some point it wouldn't matter any more.


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  #17  
Old 09-11-2004, 05:50 AM
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mete mete is offline
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Cryo forms new martensite which is very brittle So you must ALWAYS temper after cryo......Many bladesmiths have the TRIPLE mantra !! Normalize ,harden ,temper ,cryo each THREE times whether it needs it or not !!
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  #18  
Old 09-11-2004, 11:03 PM
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MixonKnives MixonKnives is offline
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Just a quick, semi-off subject question.

would triple quenching an air harden steel, such as D2 have any effect, good or bad on the finished product?
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  #19  
Old 09-11-2004, 11:52 PM
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rlinger rlinger is offline
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I've done the triple quench stuff as part of an exhaustive, to me at least, experiment. I say get it right the first time, don't dance for the full moon, don't give a crap which direction the knife is directed toward the four points of the compass, and keep all your clothes on and save the chants for those who believe in that stuff. Except for that a good long prayer seems to help.

Forget the triples and learn to do it correctly in the first attempt (double temper though, double temper).

Okay, let's look at it this way: Paul Boss is king of the hill heat treater amongst the knife maker community. I do not say that sarcasticlly. I have as much and perhaps more respect for Mr. Boss as those among us that sing his praises the highest. Now let me ask you this: do you really think the best-of-the-best triple quenches yours blades? I will say this; if he thought it needed he would.

I'll tell you what; I'll be willing to eat crow if I can better myself by doing so. If a super triple quench advocate wants to we can do a test. A unbiased maker can forge, stock remove, or whatever two similar samples. One goes to me and the other to the triple quencher. We each then send the pieces to another unbiased tester. I don't care about the steel chemistry. It can be on the fringe of simple high carbon or S90V, BG-42, or any of those in between. I'm willing to hang my ass out in the breeze in front of all us. We must remember that this is about triple quenching. Normalizing and the number of normalize cycles has nothing to do with this. If I choose, depending, to normalize at all or more than once it has no bearing on the subject at hand. -- This is the sincerest form of disagreement I can come up with. Should I be proven to have errored I will humbly accept my new found knowledge and bow to triple quench.

RL


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Last edited by rlinger; 09-12-2004 at 02:11 AM.
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  #20  
Old 09-12-2004, 02:04 AM
AwP AwP is offline
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Normalizing and the number of normalize cycles has nothing to do with this. If I choose, depending, to normalize at all or more than once It has no bearing on the subject at hand.
Actually I think normalizing does have some bearing on it. If the test blades are in an annealed state, then the steel will require a longer soak at temp to get fully into solution then a normalized blade. Multiple quenches can compensate for not soaking long enough, so if your blades are annealed before hardening then multi-quenches might make a larger difference then if you normalize before hardening. Also since normalizing helps to make the grain smaller, then multiple normalized steel will get into solution quicker with the small grain then single normalized steel, unless your grain was already small to begin with.


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  #21  
Old 09-12-2004, 02:10 AM
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The subject matter is triple quenching. That is the matter in question. It is pretty simple and I did not dictate that I would normalize at all or at what stag it may be done if done by me. Let's not throw ringers. I have been specific and I will also be specific about what steps I actually took, should it come to pass. Its not a matter of who is correct but rather what is correct. Honestly, I don't understand your point as it pertains to this matter. Soak times are up to the quenchers. It makes little difference so long as one quench theory proves better than the other. Why, as one question, would my grain size before single soak disqualify my attempt?

RL


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Last edited by rlinger; 09-12-2004 at 02:21 AM.
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  #22  
Old 09-12-2004, 03:55 AM
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rlinger rlinger is offline
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Okay AwP,

I went back and spent better time understanding your post. In the case you site I see what you say. But, in the light of what you say (and I am not arguing with your point here), how does it explain Ed's comment about certain quenches above three make it worse but then it becomes better again with an addition quench? I hope I remembered that statement right. My point in the original challenge above is this: I can do what I deem necessary in order to prepare the steel for single quench. Who ever else can do as they deem necessary before triple quench. Now, that does not mean triple quench and test and then quench some more until you get it right. Triple quench only. No more. No less. In my case it is the same. One quench only. Period.

RL


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  #23  
Old 09-12-2004, 11:57 AM
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In my opinion, the only truley fair way to go about this, is for somone who is quite skilled at both single, and triple quenching, to do ALL of the heat treating. Have some one produce 2 blades as identical as possible, preferably stock removal. Then ship them to the heat treater.

The heat treater should do everything the exact same on both blades as far as prep. Same anneal, same normilizing. With the ONLY difference in the blades being that one is single quenched, and one is triple. In fact to elimnate the doubt about normalizing vs non normalizing, it might be better to have 4 blades. 2 non normalized, 1 of them single, one of them triple. The other 2 blades normalized, and 1 single and 1 triple.

That should eliminate enough of the variables to prove beyond a reasonable doubt which combination is the best. To better explain my statement I'll lable each blade 1,2,3,4 and describe there heat treat. This is assuming all blades arrive at the heat treater in the exact same condition grain structer wise, which is why I'd prefer to do stock removal if I were in charge of the testing. And assuming all recieve a good and identical annealing.

1. Non-normalized, single quenched.
2. Non-normalized, triple quenched.
3. Normalized, single quench.
4. Normalized, triple quench.

Out of those 4 blades the testers should be able to produce the most accurate and useful data on the subject. If anyone, or any group of you more experianced guys do this, you MUST post all the data.

Thats my opinion on the who testing procedure, should some one decide to give it a shot.
Michael.
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  #24  
Old 09-12-2004, 12:35 PM
Quenchcrack Quenchcrack is offline
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Triple quenching

And what criteria are we going to use to determine which is the better method? Hardness? Abrasion resistance? Toughness? Grain Size? Depth of hardening? Amount of retained austenite? I am a believer that each steel will respond to a "best practice" but different steels have different best practices. Personally, I don't triple quench, I do normalize once, sometimes twice. But I do not sell my blades for hundreds or thousands of dollars. If a person is honestly attempting to create the ABSOLUTE best edge possible, multiple treatments may have some benefits. However, I also think that one quench, and a double temper, on most steels will get you 90%+ of what multiple heat treatments will give you. If you want to add a cryo treatment, you can pick of a bit more.

I do not make my living bladesmithing. If I did, I would have starved by now. Trying to make a living bladesmithing in todays market requires you to differentiate your product from your competition. Some folks resort to mysticism, some to exaggerated science, some to the use of extremely expensive and exotic materials. I say "God Bless you one and all". You have chosen a tough way to make a buck so do what ever works for you!


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  #25  
Old 09-12-2004, 11:49 PM
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Quenchcrack, I believe that response deserves an "Amen!"


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  #26  
Old 09-13-2004, 12:24 AM
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I vote for Mixonknives idea. It takes me off the hook and besides, I'm biased. It also is better because it eliminates any doubts about one heat treaters abilities apposed to the other. So if one fellow does both and he is not biased to begin with it would be much better. For the proceeding post, grain can be visually analysed by those that are accustomed to doing that. Edge retension can be tested. Retained austenite would require an outside source to determine.

RL


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  #27  
Old 09-13-2004, 01:01 AM
AwP AwP is offline
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Sorry it took me a while to get back to this...

Quote:
how does it explain Ed's comment about certain quenches above three make it worse but then it becomes better again with an addition quench?
I have no clue, that one is way beyond me. :confused:

My main point though was just that normalizing can make a big difference besides the single/triple quench, so it should be done the same on both test blades.

Quote:
I vote for Mixonknives idea.
Me too, I think he gets what I was saying and explained it alot better, rather then just using examples without explaining my actual point like I did.

I nominate 52100 as the test steel. It's the one that the most people claim beneficial effects of triple quenching with, so if triple quenching has anything to it then it'll be the most likely steel to show up noticeably under testing.


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Last edited by AwP; 09-13-2004 at 01:04 AM.
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  #28  
Old 09-13-2004, 08:42 AM
cactusforge cactusforge is offline
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You should add 5160 to the test as it is smiler to 52100 and also mentioned as benefiting from a triple quench. Gib


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  #29  
Old 09-30-2004, 10:02 AM
Burke Burke is offline
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Been There Done That

I have already done almost this exact experiment. I posted the results over on the "other" forums in a thread started by "pig". I cannot get the search function to work so I cannot post a link.

Roger, maybe you or someone else could search it out and post a link here.

I am in the process of moving so I don't have my notebook handy but the test I did used L6 steel from a saw blade and went something like this;

I cut two blades from the same piece of steel using a plasma touch. I then cleaned them up and profiled each to the same style of blade. I did one normalizing and two spherodizing heats on both pieces. The blades were then ground to about eighty percent and hardened. For heat I used my Paragon heat treating oven. The austenitizing temp was taken from the crucible manual along with soak times. Both blades were put into and removed as close to the same time as was possible for me. Both blades were removed and quenched at as close to the same time as was possible for me. they were let cool to the temp of the oil (165 degrees) and then removed and put in cool water and then to the freezer to cool to -20 nd then into Ln2 until they stopped bubbling then into sifted wood ashes to warm garadualy. At this point I took one blade and tempered it and the other I repeated the hardening process twice more. Each blade was tempered three times for two hours at 350 degrees. Bothe blades were finished to an a30 finish and sharpened on a Norton fine india stone. testing cosisted of an edge flex to test for proper hardness, cutting hemp rope to test for edge retention and a 90 degree flex to test for toughness.

In the edge flex (brass rod test) the single quench blade made several flexes but chipped while the triple quenched blade was flexed more times with no chipping.

The single quench blade was tested for edge retention five times and averaged. the triple quenched blade made as many cuts without sharpening as the single quenched blade did over five sharpenings.

I the nintey degree flex the single quenched blade broke at about eighty degrees while the triple quenched blade bent to nintey and returned to straight on its' own.

I left out the specifics of the tests because I could not remember the exact numbers. The blade shapes and geometry were those of a boning knife as would be used in a butcher shop. I did my best to keep all things equal in the treatment of the knives during the making and testing. I did not keep track as to which knife would be triple quenched until I started the second quench on the blade that I picked. And last but not least I, to the best of my ability tried to keep any kind of bias out of my tests. some of the steps preformed were done simply because that is the way that I do things. (ie oil temps and double spherodizing heats.

One more thing. I am not critisizing anyone or telling anybody how they should be making there knives. if a person is happy with a single quench and temper good. If they want to do a double quench that is ok with me. I belive that I get the best performance out of the triple quench and triple temper. I relate the above test only for the pupose of telling about what I have done in my shop.


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