Stainless steel

[Andrew Barton]

What is the general thought on stainless steel. How is this heat traeated, quenched and all the other needs

[Jason Cutter]

Welcome to the stainless vs. carbon debate. In my own mind, (and my opinions only) I think of it this way ...

Stainless steels, especially the modern higher-tech versions will perform outstandingly well, and stack up well against the simple carbon steels. However, to achieve this, a far greater degree of complexity is involved - both chemically speaking, in the make-up of the steel, and with the workability of these steels. This relates directly to the higher-alloyed content of the steel. When seeking improved edge holding or toughness in a stainless / high alloy steel, the most common trade-off (unavoidable) is difficulty in sharpening.

In terms of HT, the bottom line is that you do need well-controlled equipment and more precise temperatures to heat treat stainless steels. The best results come from vacuum furnaces, good temperature controls and controlled gas quenching, liquid nitrogen cryogenic cycles and well-controlled multiple tempering cycles.

This is not to say that carbon steels don't need careful heat treatment. However, stainless steels can't just be HT-ed with "more care" or "more experience" or learning to judge colours etc. You DO need the right equipment as it will give you the best results.

Most high alloy stainless steels can ONLY be air or gas-quenched. There are some makers who will oil-quench stainless, but thats rare. Makers who have not wished to invest in major equipment outlay will send their blades to the professionals for a proper HT. Thats what I do.

Just my 2 cents. Jason.

[Omega]

personally i use SS for all my knives, i like the fact that its almost maintance free. as jason said it can be difficult to sharpen and impossiable to ht with out some equipment. for hunting knives carbon steel is better. it can be diff. ht and is easier to sharpen in the feild. as for ht, this is something that can be done with little or no equipment. dont get me wrong the ht oc carbon steel is a skill to get the perfect combo that you want of hardeness and 'flex' but is alot easier and cheaper than ss.

Bill:evil

[Andrew Barton]

thank you guys, more food for thought ...

[Phantom23]

Andrew,

I will probably only tell you things Jason told me but..

With say 440c stainless you can finish grinding/polishing the knife before you get it heat treated. I had 4 done and except for the edge they were finished. Sent them away got them back quick polish and they looked great, (then handles, edges).

I had mine done by MF Dippert Pty Ltd at Belmore NSW.

As I understand Jason was getting his done by another company not far from where he lives.

If you live near Belmore I don't need to know as I have to mail mine to get them done and spend a fortnight or so wondering what Australia Post will do

Phantom23

[Jason Cutter]

Thanks Stewart. Andrew, since you are in Sydney, you could consider sending your blades to Hills Heat Treatment 7 McLellan St Bayswater or call them on (03) 97626233. They do the HT for the majority of Australia's knifemakers and they are genuinely nice guys who have helped makers a lot.

What Stewart said is very true. With stainless and those air-quenched steels, you can pretty much finish up the entire knife includeing fitting the handles using dummy pins, detach the handles and send for HT. Get it back and just buff off the surface oxidation and whack the handles back on. You can finish and fit everything on soft steel.

If you want the same advantages but want to also use a carbon steel, I suggest trying A2 carbon steel which is air-quenched. (Still pushing the carbon steel issue ! ) Cheers. Jason.

[Andrew Barton]

I am still keen on the ole stainless, just like it that it cleans up well. I'll give these guys in Belmore a call as it's not that far away.
Jason I know that carbon steel is your favorite. I am going to give it a go. I have manageg to find an outlet that sells what they called mild carbon steel. Is this any good.

[fitzo]

On the other side of the pond, here, "mild" usually means something like 1018, with 0.18% carbon. Won't get hard enough.

[Andrew Barton]

Bugger, they had a few different bits of bar stock, Most where this Mild steel, these where falt and in 6 meter long pieces. He also had some stell in a cylinder which he said was hardened. How about this stuff. So truly this stuff wont get hard enough. Is yjere anything at all I could do. It's hard to get steel.

[Andrew Barton]

That was "flat" pieces, "steel" and "there". Dam short fat fingers

[Phantom23]

Originally posted by Andrew Barton
I'll give these guys in Belmore a call as it's not that far away.
.

Andrew, Andrew, Andrew,

I said I didn't want to know.

Jason's right about Hills you see a lot recommend them.

The guy who suggested M F Dippert to me is reasonably well known as well. I think he went to MF Dippert because the turn around with Hills was taking so long. Obviously because they do a lot of work.

Jason I will have to talk to you about carbon steel. I may wait 3 weeks or just send an email

Stewart

PS Andrew even if the first knife is so-so it's really great to cut something with your first knife (even if it was only a bit of cotton to use on it's sheath) - get into it.

[Jason Cutter]

Heh heh heh Stewart, you and I may have to tell Andrew some of the facts of like before he completely freaks out.

Trying to get the equipment, materials and services is fun, but its like trying to deal with the underworld !!! Unless you already have a link to one of those services, it is hard, and you need to know how to ask the right questions !

IN Australia, for steel, you have to call around by phone and ask :-

"Do you have tool steels ?"
They usually stock O-1 in precision ground flat bar (aka FLAT GROUND BAR), A2 and D2 in blocks, and silver steel in rod form.

All the hollow carbon bar, medium-tensile, bla, bla, bla refers to mild steel or constructional type steel which is 1018 steel at best some are casehardened - good for some fittings and fire-blued guards but useless for knives. However, I did a bit of learning to forge using mild steel rod and flat bars, so it may be worth getting for practice.

If you want the A2 and D2, ask them if they can cut it to size for you - it is remarkably cheap. I have huge engine-block sized chunks of D2 bandsawed into 5mm thick sections at no extra cost. An added bonus is that if they agree to bandsaw it, you can be completely assured that the steel is annealed properly !

Most supply places list spring steels and stainless steels, but be careful. If you are lucky, the spring steel might be 1075 carbon tool steel, but often not. Stainless steels are usually the 303 stainless 304 and 316 grade nigh-nickel stainless. Quite a number of makers use 300-series stainless for fittings. If you like 303SS, they are a dime a dozen at steel suppliers. Many others don't like the way it works and finishes, and prefer 400-series stainless eg.- 410, 416SS. $00-series stainless is very hard to find in Australia.

You WILL NOT be able to find high grade stainless knife steels at most steel supliers. Ask them about 440C and ATS-34 and you will get strange looks. A term they may understand is martensitic stainless tool steel

Keith Spencer in WA stocks 1084 and L6, 440C, ATS-34, RWL-34, Damasteel and Thunderforged Damascus. I get 1095 from the USA. 440C, ATS-34, BG42, and much more are aalso available in the USA. If ever in doubt, scour the local Sunday Trash and Treasure Market and pick out old files - select ONLY well-cared for ones, no longer than 12inches, with the brand names Wiltshire or Nicholson ONLY, ignore all other brands. These are high-carbon steel. The Whitshire's are very very similar to 1095, whereas the Nicholsons seem like a real kick-ass steel - extra high 1.2-1.4% carbon and looks to have some vanadium in it - similar to W2.

Welcome to the jungle, my friend ! There are lots of us animals here already !!! Jason.

[Andrew Barton]

AAAAAAAAAAHH. Ok here we go. I'll have a go with some of the lesser quality stuff. Better then nothing. Hopefully I'll get some pics posted soon.

[Andrew Barton]

Alright maybe i'm getting some where. Just got a call from a steel mill. What about silicon spring steel. The bloke reckons they use it for leaf springs.:confused: .. Yes or No.. I wont give up on this, I'll find it where ever it will hides

[Phantom23]

Andrew,

Silicon Spring Steel, pass from me - Jasons post filled in a few gaps for me, he may know.

He mentioned Keith Spencer out in the west. I just got off the phone talking to him as I put in an order for some 440c and some other stuff.

He has a web site

http://www.akc.iinet.net.au/

and a page for supplies

http://www.knivesaustralia.com.au/supplies.html

and will send you a free catalogue of what he has for sale.
I would suggest you visit his site and request a catalogue he certainly has been most helpfull to me,

I found it difficult to make any sense out of steel suppliers up here
but as Jason has pointed out I was probably speaking the wrong language:confused: :confused:

Stewart

Jason,

The old files pick them up at the hock shops for $1 or $2
Great value .... started buying them for forging
Now I just have to decide if I want to forge :confused:
Then I have to plan how to make a forge
then I have to speak to the brother in law who may have an avenue for making it
I will just have to see

Stewart