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Heat Treating and Metallurgy Discussion of heat treatment and metallurgy in knife making.

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  #1  
Old 12-17-2015, 10:42 AM
David Eye David Eye is offline
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Question Need wiring diagm./help

I will be building my own small heat treat kiln for knife blades soon and I am wishing to make things as simple and easy for me as possible.
It would be a giant help if someone would be willing to help me out with a wiring diagram and PID controller recommendation, etc.

I have search on this forum and found some info which was helpful, but not exactly or totally what I am after. I apologize for any redundancy with my questions and if another past thread/posting is recommended please reference for me.

Here is what I have looked into so far:

1) My kiln size will be small and have an interior size of approx. 4.5x5x10 or 12" deep.
2) For this small size I would prefer to just keep it at 110v heating element.

Basic electrical items needed:
- PID Controller with ramp/soak capabilities..... an alarm output would be nice but not necessary. Auber recommends #SYL-2352P but seems expensive to me.
- 25A SSR
- Heatsink for 25A SSR
- High Temp TC. Auber recommends #WRNK-191
- Metal enclosure box. Auber recommends #Pbox16 to mount above items in.
- Kanthal A1 element wire (maybe 17ga). How many feet and where to buy needs to be determined, I can wind it myself.
- 2 Lighted Switches, one for element and one for controller.
- 2 Fuse Holders for box/panel.
- Some High Temp Wire to connect from element to box.
- Some 14 AWG Wire would be sufficient for remaining wiring but might go with 12 AWG since I have some.

Basic other materials needed:

- K23 Firebricks, maybe 15 to 20.
- Possibly some high temp refractory cement.
- Possibly 2 or 3 ceramic insulators for wires out back and TC.
- I have some 1" Kaowool blanket material to MAYBE wrap over bricks (under sheet metal).
- Angle iron
- Sheet metal
- Misc. SS screws and bolts/nuts, threaded rod and maybe pop rivets. This is no problem.
- Other misc. hardware, etc. I also have a welder if need be.

The things I need help with are:
1) Choosing the right PID controller without spending a fortune.
2) What gauge and how many feet of Kanthal A1 wire to run around the sides and back in order to create the wattage I will need for my small interior.
3) Most importantly a wiring diagram for wiring up the electrical items. I could do this myself, but it has been many years since I have dealt with similar controls. For expediency and ease it would be much better for me to just follow a wiring diagram.

Any help or suggestions regarding the above would be greatly appreciated to say the least.
Thank you kindly,
DAVID
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  #2  
Old 12-17-2015, 12:47 PM
David Eye David Eye is offline
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As an added note:
1) I am able to get some soft firebricks from my nephew. They happen to be 3" thick versus 2.5" but will work fine.

2) As far as a wiring schematic, it should be relatively simple and straight forward and only need to be simple in nature.....even this type of schematic would help me out. As far which terminals for specific wires to attach to on the back of the PID controller, I'm sure the manufacturer of the controller would supply info......at least I would hope so.

3) I would have no problem purchasing a PID controller MADE in China if I have to in order to save some bucks, but I will NOT purchase one that would have to be SHIPPED to me directly from China.
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  #3  
Old 12-17-2015, 06:31 PM
Cat skinner Cat skinner is offline
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I just finished building a HT oven only slightly bigger than what your talking about( 4.5x6x15.5). I used 16 gauge kanthal a1 and am thinking I should have probably used a bit bigger, maybe 14 gauge.
I bought my controller on Amazon its an apgtek I believe, it shipped from here in the states but if you go that route don't get the SSR with it as it shipped separate FROM CHINA. I got one faster from jamcoe. Auber has SSRs that would be suitable also. Wireing diagram is with the controller, I didn't use any thing else but could probably draw one up if you need it.

I got my element wire on eBay, wound the element on a 1/4 inch rod chucked in my cordless dril .
Look for HT oven seal in the newbe arena that is my post and there are a few pictures on there , or you should be able to view my profile I have a HT kiln album on there.
Hope this helps. Sam
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  #4  
Old 12-17-2015, 07:22 PM
David Eye David Eye is offline
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Cat skinner (Sam).......thank you very much, your info helps a lot.
Much needed info and greatly appreciated.
I will look at your other post and your profile.
I will probably go with 14 gauge Kanthal.....Why do you feel you should have used heavier ga?
I will also look up apgtek controllers on Amazon and jamcoe.
Thanks again,
DAVID
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  #5  
Old 12-17-2015, 08:02 PM
Cat skinner Cat skinner is offline
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David
I was mainly going from the idea that 16 gauge being smaller will burn out sooner. However I believe it will get me up to temp faster but I could be wrong about that. My element is drawing 15.5 amps for an output of 1922 watts.
I had my spelling wrong on the controller its AGPtek k type snr pid temperature controller.
Sam
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  #6  
Old 12-18-2015, 06:45 AM
David Eye David Eye is offline
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Sam,
How long does it take to get up to high temp using your current 16 gauge wire?
I think there are times that you don't want it to get to high temp too fast, that's why they make some PID's with a "ramp & soak" feature. Obviously the "soak" feature is to keep it at a specific temp for "X" amount of time.

I might prefer to get a PID that has the ramp and soak feature in case I might need it or to just make things easier, but yet I want the wattage of my 110v heating element to be high enough for my specific cubic feet of compartment size in order to be efficient.

I'm hoping someone will chime in and offer some more info on this, such as "ramp and soak" feature, what gauge wire to use and what length wire, what wattage I need, etc. As I stated earlier, my compartment size will be no bigger than let's say 5x6x12". I will never be making a knife any longer than approx. 8-9", most will be 7.5-8" long.
Thanks,
David
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  #7  
Old 12-18-2015, 07:52 AM
David Eye David Eye is offline
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I may have to start a new thread regarding choosing Kanthal A1 wire gauge size, length for my compartment size and to achieve proper wattage for 110v elements. Yes, I know volts x amps=watts, I just don't know what wattage I need to be efficient at heating knife blade to approx. 1500 F for my compartment size.
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  #8  
Old 12-18-2015, 02:53 PM
Cat skinner Cat skinner is offline
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David
Mine takes about 50 minutes to get to 800c. It seems like a long time to me but I'm not real sure how long it should take.
My kiln is at 4.59 watts per cu inch. I was shooting for 7.5ohms but ended up with 8 to fill the groove in my kiln.
To measure to wire I just ran a multi meter along the wire till it read 7.5ohms then added a bit for the ends.
Hope that makes sense.
Sam
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  #9  
Old 12-18-2015, 05:28 PM
David Eye David Eye is offline
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Sam....thanks for the info.
I believe 800c =1472F if I'm not mistaken. I don't think 50 minutes is too bad of a time to reach that temp. I suppose it should be slightly quicker IMO, but I'm not sure either.

I would think there must be a rule of thumb or even a more exact method to calculate watts/cu.in. for a kiln that is properly insulated and I'm hoping someone will contribute with said info.

I don't have any info on store bought knife blade kilns as far as wattage/cu.in., but if no one contributes such info soon I will see if some manufacturers list there wattage and calculate it out for their given internal chamber cu.in. size.

Where did you find the info to shoot for 7.5 ohms? Are you saying that is the resistance to positively shoot for?

David
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  #10  
Old 12-18-2015, 05:34 PM
David Eye David Eye is offline
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Sam, I will also look and see if manufactures of store bought ovens list the total amperage draw which will get me close to the heating element draw since the other items like controller don't draw much amperage.
I'm no electronics expert by any means, but I don't think the SSR draws much either except maybe momentarily. Someone please correct me if I'm wrong.
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  #11  
Old 12-18-2015, 05:46 PM
David Eye David Eye is offline
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Sam, I just looked at some Paragon KM14D specs.

They are:
1920 Watts for a .19 cu.ft. chamber size which equals 328.32 cu. in.
Which is about 5.85 Watts/cu.in.
Within reason it looks like Paragon goes with approx. 1k Watts/.1 cu.ft. IMO.

If I go with an internal chamber size of 4.25 x 5 x 14" I should be able to use a 1900 Watt element. I'm just guessing off the top of my head but maybe an approx. total STRETCHED element length of 60" to 62". I'll have to see what duralite.com has for a 110v 1900 Watt pre-wound element as far as length. Otherwise, I'll just wind my own and measure actual resistance before cutting to finished length.

David

Last edited by David Eye; 12-18-2015 at 06:40 PM.
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  #12  
Old 12-18-2015, 07:28 PM
David Eye David Eye is offline
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Using OHM's Law: Volts divided by Amps equals Ohms.
If I use Paragon's Amperage rating of 16 Amps on a 120v (1920 W) kiln that would equal 7.5 Ohms.

So.......IF (and that's IF) I wind my own element I should also shoot for 7.5 Ohms.
I would still like to know what gauge Kanthal A1 to use to get the proper stretched length and resistance I need BEFORE I buy it.
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  #13  
Old 12-18-2015, 10:01 PM
Cat skinner Cat skinner is offline
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David

I talked to a local ceramics shop kiln and heating element guru and 7.5ohms is what he recommended for the space I have.

Euclids.com has wire and I found a table of kanthal a1 resistance per foot from 0 up to 30 gauge.

I wrapped my wire around a quarter inch rod if you go real slow and have some help( I didn't) clamp the wire to the rod with vice grips and leave them on the end until your finished. I supported both ends of my rod in a hole drilled in a couple pieces of wood fastened to my bench. Then just stretched it to fit in the length of groove I had , I think I have 64 inches. So your 60 to 62 would be about right.

Try dckives.blogspot.com find the knife making onto box click on that then find the heat treat oven project. I got some of my info from there.

I hope this answered some of your questions and hopefully it wasn't to confusing.
Sam
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  #14  
Old 12-19-2015, 06:23 AM
David Eye David Eye is offline
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Sam,
I want to thank you for your replies and help.......greatly appreciated.
You have been the ONLY person to reply and I'm not sure why.
Maybe my questions are too redundant in relation to other peoples questions in the past.
As I said, I did do a search here and found some info, it just wasn't exactly what I needed.
If the info exists on this sub forum and I just didn't find it I DID apologize and asked for direction to such threads.........oh well.
David
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  #15  
Old 12-20-2015, 05:55 AM
Ed of all trade Ed of all trade is offline
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I would not feel bad, I just assume it is a question that not everyone would know the answer to. I have been listening in and am now wondering if I want to build or buy. Thanks for the thread. Ed
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