heat Treat of Tribal Knives

[MixonKnives]

I was just wondering, when you guys make a tribal knife, how far do you work down the edge before heat treat? Note I'm not asking how close do you forge, but after forging, how much further do you file it before heat treat?

Also, do you do a hand rub on it before or after heat treat? I've tried hand rubbing a couple of blades so far. 1 1095 1 5160, both after hardening. And its isn't fun. I did the edge quench on both, and i noticed that the spine would finish up much faster than the edge. I'm assuming because the metal was softer there.

Thanks in advance.
Michael

[Stormcrow]

Tai Goo's the real finishing expert, but here's my version. A goodly part of it is stolen from Tai.

I take the blade down to an edge that can be made fully sharp with a few minutes at a whet rock. I finish the blade as fine as I intend the final finish to be. Then I harden it using the pipe mthod. You take a length of steel ungalvanized pipe that is big enough around to hold your blade, close off one end, put some kind of fuel (crushed chunk charcoal, sawdust, wood shavings, whatever) down inside, and heat the pipe. Don't fill the pipe full, just put some in where it won't touch the blade. After the pipe is heated evenly all over (rotate it in the forge every little while), insert the blade, edge-up, and allow it to heat. The fuel inside the pipe consumes the oxygen as it burns, leaving a nearly oxygen-free environment for it to heat in.

After you quench, the scale will usually pop right off; it is usually paper-thin. Then you do a bit of hand-sanding and you are back where you started pretty much.

I've used this method on forge-finished blades to nicely-finished blades, on up to sword-length. It's a great method, but consumes a bit of time and fuel. On the other hand, it saves you time and frustration.

[AwP]

I usually make convex blades, and with those it just wants to sharpen by itself. Because of that mine are on the dull side of sharpened already when I HT and I haven't had any problems, though I bet flat or hollow grinds wouldn't work out that well being that close to sharp.

[prizzim]

I usually finish with a fine single cut bastard file, down to the "working edge" before heat treating, as others have said. After hardening and tempering, going over it again with the same file gives me a good idea of my success. Then it's a couple grades of sandpaper, a mild etch, stabilize, sharpen, then hit it with some oil or wax.

[Fox Creek]

Generally speaking, the more "finished" the blade is before the HT, the less work there is to do after HT to cleanup. The thickness of the edge before hardening is bit dependent on your particular methodology and experience. The thinner the edge going in the HT, the less work afterwords, but also the greater care required to avoid burning the edge or tip or getting decarburization, hence the emphasis on a reducing atmosphere, as in the pipe method, Stormcrow described so well. You can get a reducing or neutral atmospjere in a gas or coal forge too, just have to work with it and observe what is going on. Work with a small blade and see just what happens with a thin edge before hardening and pay attention to how it sharpens up. I find about 1/32" or .030" is about right for me. After post HT cleaning and finishing that will come down a few more thousandths and be ready for sharpening. I think you will be surprised how thin you can go wit the edge prior to HT if you are careful.

[MixonKnives]

I havn't been having good luck with using my forge to heat treat yet. So i've been using an oxy/act torch and edge quenching. Seems to work alot better since I can control where the heat is distributed. I'm currently working on a horizontal pipe style mini forge for heat treating. my main forge runs at to high a temp, and localizes the heat to much to get an even heat. So i'm hoping I can construct a mini forge that'll do the trick, or i'll just keep using a torch.

I'm about fed up with trying to get a good even heat in a gas forge, and if i can work out a good dependable way to obtain charcoal i wanna start doing, at least some of my forging and heat treating, in a charcoal forge in the style of Lively.

Thanx for all your answers guys. I appriciate it.
Michael

[AwP]

I get my charcoal from Lowes. Anyplace that sells grills will have some real charcoal or know where to get it, some BBQ afficianados scorn briquettes as much as we do. It's kinda funny though, I actually started using my mini propane forge for HTing because it heats alot more evenly then my charcoal forge, though mine's not as hot as yours sounds like. Sounds like you might have a good welding forge there.

[MixonKnives]

The forge I purchased was advertised as a horseshoeing and welding forge. I thought this was great since I wanted to learn damascus also, but what I didn't know is thats it wont run much lower than welding temp. the interior of the forge is about 18 inches long, and most of the heat is localized in about 10 inches right in the middle. Its almost impossible to heat the entire blade evenly without burning the tip.

Now its not all that bad of a forge, i've welded some wire rope, very easily in it. I'll keep it around for that reason, but I've gotta work out something else for general forge work and ht.

You said lowes sell charcoal, i'm assuming you mean NOT bbq briquets??

[mstu]

Can you put the blade in tang-first and cool the tip through contact with the tongs? Just a thought. I usually forge in coal or charcoal but usually heat treat with a propane forge. Sounds like my gas forge isn't quite as hot as yours, but still I usually have to move the blade in and out of the center area to get an even heat with no hot or cold spots.

[AwP]

You said lowes sell charcoal, i'm assuming you mean NOT bbq briquets??

They have both, the brand of real charcoal they carry (at least my location) is "Cowboy brand natural hardwood charcoal" which comes in brown 8# bags. Hopefully the location near you has it too, I was talking to someone else and their Lowes didn't have it, though I bet if they don't have it in stock a manager could order it for you.

[Terry_Dodson]

when i was playing with my charcoal forge i was getting my Lump Charcoal from Walmart for about $5 a bag.

[Stormcrow]

Mixon, the pipe method is good for a number of reasons. It evens out the heat along the length, and it keeps the blade from burning up. That's actually why I started using the pipe method: to keep from burning up my blades. It was later that I saw how it reduced scale. It works in solid fuel and in gas forges. You just rotate the pipe every once in a while to make sure it is heating evenly.

By the way, I tried mesquite chunk charcoal last night for the first time, and can advise you to avoid it unless you can't find anything else. I like mesquite flavor, but in a forge it shoots out a horrendous rain of sparks that like to land on your arms and hands and go for the eyes.

[SheepishLion]

Hah!!! I love forge flee bites. You can always tell when I've been forging in a shirt because it's got tons of little holes all over. My friend had a great comment when someone asked me why I had all those little burns on my arms and why I didn't cover up. He said, "It makes a man outta him. Puts hair on his chest. Well... and, uh, takes it off his arms."

I like it.

Joe