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The Damascus Forum The art and study of Damascus steel making.

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  #1  
Old 06-24-2013, 01:36 AM
raptorvan raptorvan is offline
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Posts: 6
my first damascus project....which mixture should i do?

Hey all. I joined the site 3 days ago and wow this place is amazing. Tons of info everywhere. I wore out my tablet 4 times just getting lost in all the various forums.

I am looking to extend my skills here and ive been really wanting to do a damascus project forever.

I am looking for a mixture that accepts high impacts and is basically very hard to wear down or damage. This particular project isnt a knife....yet. first i just want to make a billet and have some fun with the patterns and do some torture testing.

I have come up with a couple combinations and just wanted to get some feedback as to whether they are viable or anything else you can tell me.

First and i got this from a bladesmith and for the life of me i dont remember if it was from ray rogers or someone else but i asked and he answered back with

S-2
o-1
&
1020 or 1040

Now....the idea was that i wanted three seperate definable layers. Bright really dark and a sort of dull greyish blue.

I am also looking to be able to machine this piece so perhaps something machinesbke when annealed and not prone to warping....(unless there is a better way to do it like a salt bath or whatnot)

The other one i came up with was

1095
15N20
5150 or 5160

And

1020
1095
15N20.

So if you could help out an over whelmed noobie that would be great. And if this question has been asked and answered i apologize, i didnt see it.

So again i am looking for something that can be just a total work horse without worrying about impact or suseptable to wear and can be machined.

This project isnt for a knife but if it works out it will probably become my main goto for one.


Thanks again guys

Nick
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  #2  
Old 06-24-2013, 02:56 AM
GHEzell's Avatar
GHEzell GHEzell is offline
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Location: North Alabama
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S-2
o-1
&
1020 or 1040
Do you really want to lower your overall carbon content with a low carbon steel?

1095
15N20
5150 or 5160
From my experience, 1095 and 5160 are not compatible, the billet will want to rip itself apart when quenched. IF you can get it to weld... 5160 has some odd welding characteristics and doesn't like to weld to itself, and generally doesn't play well with others....

1020
1095
15N20.
Again, you will be lowering your carbon content with the mild steel. When mixing 10 series steels, your manganese content will determine contrast, not the carbon (the carbon migrates and evens itself out quickly). The higher the manganese, the darker the steel will etch. 1020 and 1095 have almost the same amount of manganese, so very little difference in the etch.

My suggestion is to start with 1084 and 15n20, the 2 steels behave very well together as 15n20 is basically the same thing as 1084 but with 2% nickel for excellent contrast. Both steels by themselves make great blades, so nothing is lost mixing them together. There is a good reason 90% of the damascus made is from this mix: it looks good, welds easily, and heat-treats well.

If you are determined to have a third 'color' in the mix, 1084 has a good amount of manganese so adding a low(er) manganese steel to the mix, say 1095 or 1075 (Aldo's mixes both have rather low manganese) might be the way to go, but both will behave differently in the quench and therefore raise the odds of bad things happening... not as much as throwing chromium in the mix, but you will be lessening your chances of success.

I've never worked with the silicon S-series steels and am not familiar with their properties, particularly when using them in a patternweld.

O1 and L6 make a really good mix with great contrast and edge holding, but can be a real pain to work...


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  #3  
Old 06-24-2013, 04:42 AM
raptorvan raptorvan is offline
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Posts: 6
Quote:
Originally Posted by GHEzell View Post
S-2
o-1
&
1020 or 1040
Do you really want to lower your overall carbon content with a low carbon steel?

1095
15N20
5150 or 5160
From my experience, 1095 and 5160 are not compatible, the billet will want to rip itself apart when quenched. IF you can get it to weld... 5160 has some odd welding characteristics and doesn't like to weld to itself, and generally doesn't play well with others....

1020
1095
15N20.
Again, you will be lowering your carbon content with the mild steel. When mixing 10 series steels, your manganese content will determine contrast, not the carbon (the carbon migrates and evens itself out quickly). The higher the manganese, the darker the steel will etch. 1020 and 1095 have almost the same amount of manganese, so very little difference in the etch.

My suggestion is to start with 1084 and 15n20, the 2 steels behave very well together as 15n20 is basically the same thing as 1084 but with 2% nickel for excellent contrast. Both steels by themselves make great blades, so nothing is lost mixing them together. There is a good reason 90% of the damascus made is from this mix: it looks good, welds easily, and heat-treats well.

If you are determined to have a third 'color' in the mix, 1084 has a good amount of manganese so adding a low(er) manganese steel to the mix, say 1095 or 1075 (Aldo's mixes both have rather low manganese) might be the way to go, but both will behave differently in the quench and therefore raise the odds of bad things happening... not as much as throwing chromium in the mix, but you will be lessening your chances of success.

I've never worked with the silicon S-series steels and am not familiar with their properties, particularly when using them in a patternweld.

O1 and L6 make a really good mix with great contrast and edge holding, but can be a real pain to work...
Ok so it ISNT the carbon that makes the contrasts....well that actually explains a lot.

And as for the S steel they make jack hammer bit from it so i cant imagine it would be a pleasure to work with.
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  #4  
Old 06-25-2013, 08:12 AM
Gary Mulkey's Avatar
Gary Mulkey Gary Mulkey is offline
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Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Branson, Mo
Posts: 1,129
Nick,

When pattern welding two steels they should be very compatible so as to not introduce stress into the Damascus. There is a very good reason that most Damascus makers use 1084 & 15N20.

There are plenty of things that can go wrong when making pattern welded steel so it is always wise to use the best two steels and not add to the potential problems. Remember the old "KISS" method.

Good luck.

Gary


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Last edited by Gary Mulkey; 06-25-2013 at 08:17 AM.
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  #5  
Old 06-25-2013, 08:12 AM
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Ed Caffrey Ed Caffrey is offline
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Listen to what GHEzell said!

Many steels do not "play well together" when it comes to creating damascus. Something you must be aware of is the "complatibility" of steels. I use that term to explain that various types of steel have different expansion and contraction properties.... meaning that when heated, a given steel type expands a given amount....and when cooled it contracts a given amount.

This is why certain steels simply do not "play well with others". For example...the aforementioned, o1 & L6......those two steel are pretty far apart when it comes to how much they expand/contract. What does that mean for producing damascus? Well, if you have two steels that do not expand and contract at close to the same rates....it makes your job difficult. If you use steels that have expansion/contraction rates that are too far apart, you will end up with severe warping during heat treating (if you ever get them to weld), and worst case is that they literally tear themselves apart during quenching.

So, all that being said, there's a LOT more to it then just looking at what specific steels are used for, and deciding you're going to "put them together".


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  #6  
Old 09-09-2013, 08:15 AM
Hurley Hurley is offline
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Join Date: Sep 2013
Location: Southwest GA
Posts: 275
GHEzell, great analogy! If I was still an editor, I would "steel" that one..........ok corny joke, but still a great analogy!
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