Assorted beginner questions

[SteveGallo]

Hi Knife Network,

I've decided that this spring is the time when I finally get into bladesmithing. My goal is to smith mostly kitchen knives, and I'd love your input on a few questions.

First, I'm from southern Maine and I haven't had much luck finding other local bladesmiths. I've heard the New England School of Metal Work is excellent, but I have a newborn and I can't get away for the duration of one of their classes.

Secondly, I'm having one hell of a time finding an anvil. I know this topic is done to death, but what I'm planning on doing is using a section of 3' H beam, standing it up, welding as good of a face of steel onto it, putting it in a bucket with concrete, then burying the bucket in the ground. Similar to this set up, but encased in concrete and buried.



Does anyone have any input on how that might work out? I figure the beam weighs about ~40 lbs.


I may start with mystery steel for my first go, but I plan on very quickly ordering some good stock, probably from http://newjerseysteelbaron.com/shop/...cutlery-steel/

Does anyone have advice on a steel selection for kitchen knives? I've done my homework and read 9 or so books on the subject, many of which describe the properties of various steels, but I haven't heard of a lot of the pricier options on on NJ steel baron. I know Kramer Knives uses 52100 steel and he's obviously doing something right, but any opinions would be great.

Lastly, I'm ordering parts to assemble the burner for my forge this week or next. I'm stuck between this type of burner :



Which seems to be well documented, simple to make, but I've heard isn't so efficient, or a Minimongo type burner:



Which I've heard is a little more temperamental but offers higher performance.

Any advice? Forge shape will probably just be a metal bucket or something fairly small as I probably won't make anything bigger than maybe 12".


Thanks in advance for the help!

[Ray Rogers]

A rule of thumb on anvils is that you want the anvil to weigh at least 40 times the weight of the heaviest hammer you plan to use. Building the anvil the way you plan to will throw that rule off but it could still work if you make sure the base is very solid. You're in 'try it and see' territory.

I make a lot of kitchen knives, most of mine are stainless. Professional kitchen cutlery is not an easy market to get in to. Most pros, and nearly all home chef's will prefer stainless which you can't process correctly in a forge. For carbon steel, 52100 is probably the best choice as it doesn't rust near as easy as the steels we recommend to beginners like 1084 or even 1095, both of which rust in a heartbeat. O1 would be the next best choice of the steels I have worked with.

The really bad news is, you're not ready for 52100 or O1. Unless you turn out to be some kind of forging prodigy you won't be ready for quite a while. This is not a put down on you, it's a reflection of how complicated and tough those steels are to process. 52100 has about a 200 degree window that it must be worked within and that takes mega practice. Not to mention that 52100 is also about the toughest material you ever tried to move with a hammer - if you're strong now, you'll be a gorilla by the time you can work a 10" blade of 52100 without having a coronary. On top of that, it takes considerable skill to heat treat these steels in a forge and get it right. These steels are so tough that any heat treatment will usually result in what seems like a pretty good blade but they won't perform as well as they should and a knowledgeable user will see that and there goes your reputation again.

I guess what I'm saying is, start with 1080 or 1084 and make something other than kitchen knives if you plan to sell them. Make one for yourself though and use it. You need to know what you're selling. You get ONE pro chef unhappy with your knives and your market will shrink to near non-existant overnight. Make a bunch for your friends first and get their feedback too.

Don't know anything about either of those burners. I like forced air forges, simple to build and very hot (no other type any hotter) and they don't have the 'tuning' problems that often come with other types of burners.....

[SteveGallo]

Thanks for the reply.

I should have mentioned that I'm just planning on making knives for myself for now, no plans to sell.

I'm hoping that with the anvil, since all of the weight will be directly under the blade that it might work out pretty well, but I guess I'll just try it and report back.

I don't mind working up to a challenge, so I'll probably just make a few starting knives with sub standard steel until I'm ready to work the harder stuff.

I'm curious though, why can't you process stainless correctly in a forge? I have no experience so I'm sure you're right, but I've read Jim Hrisoulas' books and he says you can forge stainless, it just takes a few extra steps.

[miketheknife]

I would not start with unknow steel, go ahead and buy some 1084 from New Jersy Steel Baron and be done with it. I made a few unknown steel knives when I first started and now all I would use them for is paper weights. Take these guys advice to heart, they have been there done that. Good luck and if you are like me you will find this "hobby" very addicitive to say the least.

Mike

[SteveGallo]

Originally Posted by miketheknife

I would not start with unknow steel, go ahead and buy some 1084 from New Jersy Steel Baron and be done with it. I made a few unknown steel knives when I first started and now all I would use them for is paper weights. Take these guys advice to heart, they have been there done that. Good luck and if you are like me you will find this "hobby" very addicitive to say the least.

Mike

I've already decided not to use mystery steel, I just meant I'd order some known steel that isn't ideal for kitchen knives and make a few with that first before trying 52100 or O1 like Ray suggested.

[Ray Rogers]

I didn't say that stainless couldn't be forged - it ain't easy but you can do it. I said it couldn't be properly processed and by that I meant the whole forging and heat treating process. As difficult as stainless is to forge by hand it's pretty much impossible to heat treat correctly - note to skeptics: I said correctly - in an unregulated gas forge such as most of us use. All the cutlery grade stainless I'm familiar with requires very long soak times (30 to 60 minutes) at a specific temperature and a little variance from that temperature makes a big difference in the end result. To hold the temperature accurately enough to get the desired results would be impossible for most of us without using an electric furnace...

[Doug Lester]

My experience with 52100 is a little different than Ray's. I don't find it all that slow to move under the hammer but you do have to work it hot and stop hammering it when it gets down to a orangish red. The problem with any steel with that much carbon in it is getting it too hot during quenching and forming a lot of retained austinite when using a simple forge for heat. A regulated heat source, such as a kiln or molten salt tank, is much better.

That's not to say that you cannot heat treat such high carbon steels in a forge, especially if you can spot decalesence and recalesence in the steel. The problem comes with consistantly being able to heat treat a blade from a high carbon steel like 52100 without forming a bunch of retained austinite. Something like 5160, 9260, 1080, or 1084 is a much better choice when you are using an unregulated forge for heat treating.

Doug

[Imakethings]

My 32 cents worth (my rates have recently increased).

For your forge body, consider using the tank from a water heater, it's round, thicker steel, not galvanized, and best of all, free. Just ask around plumbing repair companies and/or post on freecycle to find one. A 40 gal should be the right diameter for doing a forge.
The other nice thing is that since the walls for a water heater tank are thicker you can weld stuff to them, or bolt things (like doors and feet) to them.

If you are planning on doing 'real' forge work and not just doing stock removal knives having a good supply of mystery steel is a godsend for practice and technique. Sure you're not going to sell off any of the pieces you make from it, but you do need to get the skills and muscle memory trained up to make finished blades.

[SteveGallo]

Originally Posted by Doug Lester

My experience with 52100 is a little different than Ray's. I don't find it all that slow to move under the hammer but you do have to work it hot and stop hammering it when it gets down to a orangish red. The problem with any steel with that much carbon in it is getting it too hot during quenching and forming a lot of retained austinite when using a simple forge for heat. A regulated heat source, such as a kiln or molten salt tank, is much better.

That's not to say that you cannot heat treat such high carbon steels in a forge, especially if you can spot decalesence and recalesence in the steel. The problem comes with consistantly being able to heat treat a blade from a high carbon steel like 52100 without forming a bunch of retained austinite. Something like 5160, 9260, 1080, or 1084 is a much better choice when you are using an unregulated forge for heat treating.

Doug

I definitely won't have the set up that it seems like I'd need for stainless, so that's out for now.

My new question then, is what steel is best suited for cutlery given that I'll have a pretty basic set up. My first attempt was going to be an all purpose chef's or santoku. Again, I'm not planning on selling anything, so durability is less of an issue because I can just take really good care of them/never put them in a dishwasher.

[Ray Rogers]

Doug's experience with 52100 probably differs from mine due to the fact that he probably has a muscle. I had a muscle once, just one back in my youth, but now I make do with a little gristle and fat. If you're a little under powered you'll probably notice the difference between 52100 and most other steels though I hear D2 is even worse (never tried it).

If you want to make a Santoku for yourself try the 1084 we always recommend. Lots of pro chef's favor carbon blades for certain things but I find most casual chefs and home users don't. It can be quite a shock to them when their blade starts to rust. But, for yourself, or anyone willing to take care of a knife carbon kitchen tools have their own type of appeal...

[SteveGallo]

Originally Posted by Ray Rogers

Doug's experience with 52100 probably differs from mine due to the fact that he probably has a muscle. I had a muscle once, just one back in my youth, but now I make do with a little gristle and fat. If you're a little under powered you'll probably notice the difference between 52100 and most other steels though I hear D2 is even worse (never tried it).

If you want to make a Santoku for yourself try the 1084 we always recommend. Lots of pro chef's favor carbon blades for certain things but I find most casual chefs and home users don't. It can be quite a shock to them when their blade starts to rust. But, for yourself, or anyone willing to take care of a knife carbon kitchen tools have their own type of appeal...

Thanks for the advice. Hopefully I don't come across as a douche, but I'm 25 and very strong so I don't think I'd mind harder to work steels. I'm more worried about the ones that I'd have to be precise with temperature wise.

I'll probably get some 1084 and some 52100 and try both. I'll let you know how it turns out.

[Imakethings]

My point remains, if you've got no experience working steel, get some scrap mystery steel and hammer away to get a feel for it.

[Crex]

You might want to think through the geometrics of a good kitchen knife. They are thin for a purpose. Reducing steels down to thin, not so hard......reducing steels down to uniform thin such as a chef's knife or any other decent kitchen knife, not for the novice with "just learning" skills. Uniform thin takes a lot of skilled hammer control. You are starting out with minimal skills and makedo tools. Suggest you start with making simple blades and learn to make them well and master consistent heattreating skills.
Thin kitchen blades add an interesting mix to the HT process due to their geometry.....this will become very apparent quite quickly.
I go along with Doug on the 52100, yep it's stiff if it's not hot enough, but at the right temp it moves like most of the rest of the frogable alloys. It definitely is not a beginner steel expecially the HT part. 1084 is by far the easiest to learn, thereby makes mastering the rudimentary skills much easier.
Stainless, depending on alloy, has an even narrower margin of temp to work. It can be totally ruined hitting "cold", as most will craze with stress cracks you can't see until much later in the process when it's too late.
Simple rule of thumb...learning bladesmithing with simple tools - use simple steels.

On the forge, if you stay at this, you will build several over your lifetime. Keep the first one small and simple as well. Too big a chamber and you waste fuel and have a harder time controlling your heats, both very important. Unless, like mentioned above, you are a gifted prodigy, don't complicate things by visions of damascus or patternwelded steel making. This is advanced work for sure.

Note: Things must have realy changed with waterheaters, the last ones I tore apart to make feed troughs out of were definitely galvanized. These weren't more than 20yr old. Enlighten me.

[Imakethings]

Originally Posted by Crex

Note: Things must have realy changed with waterheaters, the last ones I tore apart to make feed troughs out of were definitely galvanized. These weren't more than 20yr old. Enlighten me.

Last 4 I tore apart were steel with some sort of plastic liner. I've yet to see a galvanized tank.

[SteveGallo]

Originally Posted by Crex

You might want to think through the geometrics of a good kitchen knife. They are thin for a purpose. Reducing steels down to thin, not so hard......reducing steels down to uniform thin such as a chef's knife or any other decent kitchen knife, not for the novice with "just learning" skills. Uniform thin takes a lot of skilled hammer control. You are starting out with minimal skills and makedo tools. Suggest you start with making simple blades and learn to make them well and master consistent heattreating skills.
Thin kitchen blades add an interesting mix to the HT process due to their geometry.....this will become very apparent quite quickly.
I go along with Doug on the 52100, yep it's stiff if it's not hot enough, but at the right temp it moves like most of the rest of the frogable alloys. It definitely is not a beginner steel expecially the HT part. 1084 is by far the easiest to learn, thereby makes mastering the rudimentary skills much easier.
Stainless, depending on alloy, has an even narrower margin of temp to work. It can be totally ruined hitting "cold", as most will craze with stress cracks you can't see until much later in the process when it's too late.
Simple rule of thumb...learning bladesmithing with simple tools - use simple steels.

On the forge, if you stay at this, you will build several over your lifetime. Keep the first one small and simple as well. Too big a chamber and you waste fuel and have a harder time controlling your heats, both very important. Unless, like mentioned above, you are a gifted prodigy, don't complicate things by visions of damascus or patternwelded steel making. This is advanced work for sure.

Note: Things must have realy changed with waterheaters, the last ones I tore apart to make feed troughs out of were definitely galvanized. These weren't more than 20yr old. Enlighten me.

You're echoing what I'm slowly learning about kitchen knives. I decided I wanted to make kitchen knives so I did all my homework and read a ton of books about bladesmithing in general, but not specifically about kitchen cutlery. I'm learning now that making a Bowie and a Gyuto are two different animals.

Maybe I'll make some cleavers to avoid starting out with a super thin blade. I don't have any immediate interest in damascus or welding, and my forge will probably be made out of a 5 gallon bucket or paint can with a single burner. I prefer kitchen knives on the smaller end anyway.

I'm going to pick up some 1084 to learn on, but does anyone have any steel recommendations for once I have some skill and given that I A) am not looking to sell these knives, B) don't mind using something less durable/stain resistant/rust prone as I can just make sure that I take good care of them C) would prefer something that's easier to heat treat?

Also, what thickness of steel should I be ordering?