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  #31  
Old 06-20-2004, 11:43 AM
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Thank you very much, Chuck, for the help!
Brett


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  #32  
Old 06-20-2004, 11:46 AM
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As the man once said "No Problemo"


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  #33  
Old 06-20-2004, 11:47 AM
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Hi guys, this is my first time posting over here at the sheath making forum and I hate to bring up these old threads, but I stumbled across a book hear at the local library that you all may be interested in.

It's called "The Harness Makers' Illustrated Manual" originally written by a W.N. Fitz-Gerald and published in 1875. North River Press, Inc republished it in 1977.

Aside from including great info on using the whole hide, cutting/measuring harness for custom fits, quality of various leathers, ect. It also includes two chapters dedicated to Leather Blacking (blacks, stains, varnishes, and polishes) and "Miscellanious Recipes for the workshop and harness room" (waterproofing oils, soaps, harness oils, ect).

It's awsome! Some of the directions for making stains and varnishes are pretty crazy. Some ingredient called "logwood" is used alot. As is "lamp black", "bone black", and "ivory black".

By far the craziest sounding ingredient is something the author refers to as "dragon's blood". Seriously! Here's how the varnish recipe' reads: "Black Varnish. Pulverize and mix together 1 1/2 parts of mastic, 2 1/2 parts of shellac, 2 1/2 parts of dragon's blood, and 2 parts of the best bone black; heat 1 1/2 parts of turpentine and 10 parts of alchol, pour them over the gums, place the whole over a moderate fire, and boil until the latter are thouroughly disolved."

If anybody can shed some light on the above for me...I'd greatly like to know! What the hell is half of that stuff!?

The book also includes the vinegar black recipe' mentioned at the beginning of this thread...which is why I posted here

If anybody's interested in Olde World ways of coloring leather...this might be a cool book for you to try and interlibrary loan.

Have a good night! Hope the book mentioned above is of interest to somebody!

-Jared L. Cass, Wisconsin-


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  #34  
Old 06-20-2004, 11:47 AM
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Howdy Jared-
That book is in my personal library and it is a good one!

dragon's blood - name for a red resin obtained from a number of different plants. It was held by early Greeks, Romans, and Arabs to have medicinal properties; Dioscorides and other early writers described it. A chief source was Dracaena cinnabari, a tree of the agave family. Voyagers to the Canary Islands in the 15th cent. obtained it from another species, D. draco. The resin, exuding beautiful garnet-colored drops when the tree is wounded, was well known as the source of varnish for 18th-century Italian violinmakers. Later, dragon's-blood varnishes and medicines were obtained chiefly from the immature fruits of a palm ( Daemonorops draco ) native to Malaya. Although still sometimes used in photoengraving processes, dragon's blood as a coloring material has largely been replaced by synthetics.

mastic - This gum or resin with the exquisite aroma is exuded from the bark of the mastic tree. The mastic trees (Pistacia lentiscus) are Mediterranean evergreens which are exclusively found and cultivated in the southern part of the island, which is more fertile. To visit the southern regions of Chios, one should follow Karfas road out of the capital ; its about 40 km away.

shellac - an animal product. The basic material comes from the Coccus lacca, a scale insect that feeds on certain trees in India and southern Asia. After feeding, the insect produces through its pores a gummy substance which hardens into a protective covering called lac. This lac is collected and then it is crushed, washed and dried. After further treatment, it is skillfully drawn into thin sheets of finished shellac. Many products such as phonograph records, sealing wax, fireworks, and electrical insulators and instruments have shellac in their composition. When mixed with alcohol, shellac forms ordinary varnish

bone black - is charcoal made from bone.

Turpentine and alcohol are self explanatory.

You can see why most leather workers use the modern dyes and finishes On teh other hand it can be fun and informative to try them out.

Now a note of caution - many of the products used in these old formulas are EXTREMELY toxic (so are most modern dyes for that matter) and must be mixed properly so please use all precautions when working withthem. Also some are actually damaging to leather so check with some body in the know before using.


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  #35  
Old 06-20-2004, 11:49 AM
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I seem to remember posting this here as well as some other boards. Hope this helps. This is not my explanation on vinegar & iron. This was in a chat from A very learned friend. Curt




Subject: Vinegar and iron



What you describe was once known as a mineral pigment dye. The nitrate of iron stock stain and the copper dyeing of horns were also part of what is known as mineral pigment dyes.

The basic concept being that you convert a metal to a water-soluble form. This may be done with a number of mineral acids or organic acids.

The use of vinegar in this goes way back to the ancient Greeks and was somewhat explained in the writings of Pliny, The Elder, in 50 AD Rome. Until the 20th century, vinegar was the common way of making lead acetate (sugar of lead) which was then used to make lead carbonate or lead oxide.

The basic idea behind the use of mineral pigment dyes on protein-based goods (wool, silk, horn,leather, etc.) was that once you impregnate the protein with one of the metals it becomes toxic to those life forms that would otherwise use the protein as a food source. This includes bacteria and all insects and the things we call worms. Copper is exceptionally toxic to those life forms. Iron only slightly less so. Then once you have the water-soluble form of the metal in the protein you convert it to a water-insoluble form which locks the protein in for life and the metal presents no danger to the user.

In the old historical sources they cite the use of "sour wine". This would be wine vinegar. Cider vinegar ids about 4% acetic acid. Wine vinegar is 8% acetic acid. The "sour wine" would then convert more of the metal to a water-soluble form. In making lead acetate or copper acetate they suspended plates of the metal over the vinegar, rather than in it. While the liquid vinegar is corrosive, the fumes given off by the vinegar are faster in the corrosion, or conversion of the metal. An 8th century Arabian writing described the dyeing of wool. They took a large crock and added wine vinegar to the crock. The wool to be dyed was then immersed in the vinegar. The copper plates were suspended above the liquid level of the vinegar. Within a day or two there would be a heavy coating of copper acetate on the plates. These were then simply dipped into the vinegar where the copper acetate dissolved in the vinegar. They were then left suspended in the fumes for another day or two and again washed off in the vinegar. This process went on until they got the desired depth of color in the wool. They were making the copper dye in the same crock they were using to dye the wool in.


The industrial processes books at work had extensive sections of leather tanning. Going back into the old colonial period bark tanning processes. At one point in the tanning process the hides were subjected to several days in the "dung vat". Animal waste in a slurry with water. This removed any residual lime from the dehairing vat. It also added sulfur to the hide which allowed the hide to pick up greater amounts of tannic acid when the hide got to the first bark tanning vat. Some tanneries specified what anumal dungs were acceptable and which were not. The dunging process imparted some color to the hide since the dung contains iron (spent red blood cells). Then the books discussed just what type of bark was commonly used in which parts of the country. Tanneries operating in New York state and the New England states usually used hemlock bark as their source of tannic acid. This bark also adds some red color to the leather since that bark contains a red dye. Tanneries operating in Pennsylvania and down through the Appalachians used chestnut when they could get it or oak bark. This gave a brown color without the red tint seen in hemlock bark. So there were at that time differences in leather color that related to where the leather had been made.


Some years ago I was told that my work in mineral pigments on leather had been discussed by the Smithsonian. The Smithsonian claimed that the reason that some of the old leather did not last long was due to the extensive use of the mineral pigment dyes since they were generally the acid salts of the metal. But on the other hand. Another group in England claimed that the poor aging of leather had more to do with the sulfur-bearing gases found in the air of the industrialized nations. That when sulfur dioxide enters into the leather it turns to sulfuric acid when joined with traces of moisture and it was this acid that deteriorated the leather.

When I worked on the background material for the nitrate of iron stock stain I found that nitrate of iron had been in common use in leather dyeing into the
19th century. Used mainly for black leather. When the iron enters into a leather tanned with bark
(tannic acid) the iron turns black. But the color is more of a brownish black as it ages a bit. The combination of iron and tannic acid will not form a stable true jet-black. To get a permanent jet-black they used gallic acid from "nut galls". Gallic acid is produced by some plants and is another form of tannic acid but is far stronger. In the wool dyeing industry gallic acid was said to be 3 to 4 times stronger than tannic acid in its action. Up until the late 19th century the most common source of gallic acid (nut galls) was from the caps of acorns produced by a particlar variety of scrub oak that grows in dry climates around the Mediterranean.

The combination of nitrate of iron and gallic acid was one of the ways in which they dyed powder horn tips black in the late 18th through mid-19th centuries. Also used was silver nitrate which was more expensive to make.

Curt Gillock
Two Fools Leather Goods
903 Woodhurst Dr.
Monroe, NC 28110
www.twofoolsleathergoods.com
gadabout@twofoolsleathergoods.com


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  #36  
Old 06-20-2004, 11:51 AM
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Some more info that i thought might be pertinent to this thread. Again this info is from a friend. Curt


Up until about 10 years ago I did do a little leather work. Mainly hunting pouches to go with the horn sets I was making. Worked mainly out of Madison Grant's books.

The thing about looking at the "technology" of the 17th through 19th centuries is that you see what is a limited amount of technology with a wide range of applications. When I was doing the work on the nitrate of iron stock stain it drifted off into horn dyes and leather dyes. The same was true when I was looking at the copper dyeing of powder horns. Turns out that the use of copper salts with leather goes back to 50 AD in Rome and Pliny the Elder was simply translating a lot of earlier Greek writings into Latin.

We think of this as the industrial age and before our present era there were no such things as manufactured chemicals. A lot of the period reenactors fail to understand that in looking at chemical industries then and now it is more a question of size. Few also look at how particular industries, or their particular processes evolve over the years. I developed what you might call an ironic sense of humor on a few things. The leather tanning business being one of them. Our present industry leaders, chemists, management, etc. try to convince everyone that what we have now is so much better than what came before it. You sometimes see comments about Indians brain tanning leather and then smoking that leather. One recent book talks about smoking the leather with grass clippings. If you look at where Indians established seasonal villages it was always close to a water supply. Small stream or possibly a river. Along these water ways grows certain types of trees that like moist ground. Fast growing and short-lived trees. Such trees are noted for producing large amounts of creosote when you burn the wood. So in hanging a hide above such a fire to "smoke" that hide they were actually causing creosote to condense onto the hide, from the smoke. The creosote is an oily liquid and would work its way into the hide, uniformly distributing itself within the leather. Creosote is a phenolic-structured liquid hydrocarbon. If you look at bark tanning, the tannic acid extracted from the bark is also a phenolic-structured chemical. Both do the same thing in the hide. Both alter the behavior of the leather and will prevent mold and insect attack. Now in the 1930's some tanning industry chemist come up with a product they called "Synthatan". Described as a modern miracle product in the tanning industry. It turned out to be nothing more than a manufactured creosote type product akin to the phenol that had been used in Lysol for some years. Now of course the PhD chemist would never own to up to borrowing "technology" from a stone age people.

Curt Gillock
Two Fools Leather Goods
903 Woodhurst Dr.
Monroe, NC 28110
www.twofoolsleathergoods.com
gadabout@twofoolsleathergoods.com


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  #37  
Old 06-20-2004, 11:52 AM
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Howdy Curt-
Here's a link that goes hand in hand with your post (great stuff BTW!) - http://members.tripod.com/~shoot7/madmonk.html
It's Mad Monk's Horn Dying Page and discusses the use of mineral pigment dyes for horn and how it not only colors but protects.

And here is a second on pigments of all types including mineral - http://webexhibits.org/pigments/

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Then once you have the water-soluble form of the metal in the protein you convert it to a water-insoluble form which locks the protein in for life and the metal presents no danger to the user.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
According to Mad Monk this was done by "sweating" (steaming for horn) what process was/is used for leather?


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  #38  
Old 06-20-2004, 11:54 AM
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Here is a recipe for walnut hull dye froma friend. Hope this can be of use. Curt


This may not be the best way, but it works for me: Get yourself a five gallon bucket with a sealable lid. To save having to deal with getting off the "hull mud" and bits, put the broken up hulls in a heavier fabric bag. I'm not too good with the ratio, but a shoe box sized amount of hulls should give you a strong 5-8 gallon mix. (Leave plenty of room in the bucket to allow for "slop factor"). I boil up the water, soak the bag in and use the end of an oar (lol) to leech the dye out of the bag and into the water (like a teabag). I add a whole bottle of apple-cider vinegar to an 8 gallon batch as a stain setter
(don't want the stuff washing out on you). For a dark dye, I'll leave a shirt soaking for a week or two. Don't compress it too much or you get a tie-dye effect. Also, after a day, I'll pull the shirt out and reposition it, to make sure that the dye is getting everywhere and the fabric isn't too bunched up. Someone on the list once posted that they added a bottle of rubbing alcohol to the dye to help set stains and to keep the mix from molding. I haven't tried it as I'm not too concerned about mold...scrape it off.

Oh, a pair of rubber gloves might be a good idea too. If you have gnarly "shop hands" like mine, the stain really stands out in the callouses and makes me look even more Welsh.

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  #39  
Old 06-20-2004, 11:55 AM
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The postings were from e-mails between madmonk & I. (AKA Bill Knight). Except the walnut hull stuff which I think came from Jason at Williamsburg.

Curt


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  #40  
Old 06-20-2004, 11:56 AM
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But that would make me a walnut clone "(sorry couldn't help it - a reenactors "joke")

On one of the reenactor forums (frontierfolk?) they were discussing walnut dying and if IIRC you "cook" it in an iron pot there is no need for the vinegar as the infused iron will act as a mordant?

We've got a lot of scrub oak in our area and I've been meaning to go collect some galls (lots of 'em on theses trees/nuts), but so far it's one of "those" plans.


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  #41  
Old 06-20-2004, 11:57 AM
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Wow...thanks Chuck and Curt! Great info and much appreciated!

That's some real interesting stuff. Yah, the modern dyes, varneshes, ect are alot easier...but they just don't have the same "flavor" and connection to the past as the old ones do (well, except for the modern ones that are actually old ones )

Thanks for the explanations to some of those ingredients. I take it then that logwood black and ivory black are the charcoal made from logwood and ivory?

In the above mentioned book numerous plant ingredients are used listed under the "Stains" subheading. I'm just starting out on this whole olde time way of coloring leather (trying to take my meger leather working skills to the next level), but is there any way to make a leather dyed the color of some of these plant based dyes?

http://www.pioneerthinking.com/naturaldyes.html

I'm sure (maybe...I'm new to this!) that leather is a whole different animal from cloth. But I see that some of the ingredients for a brown dye... is lots of the same stuff as used for veg tanning.

Not being a chemist , or even knowing much of chemistry :confused: , but would adding vinigar or some other ingredient be able to help the veg. derived dyes to be able to "stick" to leather? Has anybody experimented with using natural dyes like this for coloring leather?

Also, know of any easier to make varnishes than those listed in the "Harness Makers' Manual"? Not that they seem too complicated, but some of the ingredients may be difficult to get ahold of

Thanks guys!

Jared L. Cass, Wisconsin


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  #42  
Old 06-20-2004, 11:58 AM
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Vinagar is one of the best "secret" ingredients of all good meat maranades. It works to tenderize the meat by the acid breaking down the protien fibers or some such. When making dye always disolve the steel wool until the bath will not take anymore. When that happens the wool will just rust intead of desolve. All the acid is gone at that point and the dye will not deteriorate your leather. Read that in an old Foxfire book. Thanks for all the good research done here guys.


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The beautiful sheaths created for storing the knife elevate the knife one step higher. It celebrates the knife it houses.
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  #43  
Old 06-20-2004, 12:00 PM
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Chuck Burrows Chuck Burrows is offline
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WHEW! Well they you go ya'll - I had to copy and paste by hand the entire thread post by post and since I can't post with except for myself that's why they al look like me


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  #44  
Old 06-20-2004, 12:45 PM
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  #45  
Old 06-20-2004, 01:07 PM
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Thanks Jim - This one was just too good to take a chance n losing.


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