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High-Performance Blades Sharing ideas for getting the most out of our steel.

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  #1  
Old 10-09-2011, 11:03 PM
dirtydancer dirtydancer is offline
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tough stainless question

hey guys... new to the forum. I'm a canadian soldier and make a lot of knives for a lot of my compadres and my reputation is at stake. I have made all of my knives out of 440c for the last number of years and I'm looking for something to improve on it. The deal is, I am looking for the "perfect stainless" for a utility blade. it has to be able to hold a good edge, take a severe beating and still maintain the ability to resist rusting to a fair degree and be resharpened in the field. in your opinion what is the best all round stainless for a utility/combat blade that is "soldier proof"???
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  #2  
Old 10-10-2011, 10:46 AM
Doug Lester Doug Lester is offline
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Good luck. You are trying to ballance opposing forces. The better the edge holding ability will be the harder it will be to sharpen the steel. Also those things that promote edge retention tend to increase brittleness which will decrease the ability to "take a beating". Stainless steels also tend to be more brittle than tool and spring steels requiring that the blade be made thicker to get the same strength and toughness. The advantage is that they do stain less. As far as soldier/sailer/marine proofing a knife-there's not cure for stupidity.

Personally I would stick with what you are using or one of the other tried and true stainless steels.

Doug


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  #3  
Old 10-10-2011, 11:16 AM
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SVanderkolff SVanderkolff is offline
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I would also stick to the 440C. What you may want to do though is experiment with the heat treat and tempering cycles. Cryogenic freezing will add some toughness. Higher or lower tempering can adjust the brittleness abit and your quench speed can effect the hardness.
You may also want to try a blade out of the carbon steel and see how you like it. As long as the blade is cared for, same as the rest of your combat equipment, it may give you the qualities you are looking for.
Good luck
Steve


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  #4  
Old 10-11-2011, 01:45 PM
dirtydancer dirtydancer is offline
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thanks guys, I somewhat agree however. I have stood by 440c so far... and until I have a guarantee'd "better" steel to use, I will stay with it. Problem is, I know there are FAR "better steels out there for every specific aplication. Again, the problem with that is, they have to be better at everything as I can't afford to "trade off" anything in performance... it doesn't matter how well a knife will hold an edge if it breaks the minute you pry with it or use it to hammer things (I know that's not the intended purpose of a knife, but most of my clients are soldiers and that's the deal). I take great pride in my knives as users and I want to use the best possible materials in every aspect. I believe I have taken the 440c as far as I can, and if I can use a more appropriate material, I want to start the trials.
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Old 10-11-2011, 08:22 PM
Doug Lester Doug Lester is offline
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Yes, everything in knife design is a trade off from the sellection of the steel and all aspects of the design. Better is by nature a relative term. There are steels that hold an edge better. Some are tougher. Some are stronger. Some rust less. Some are less prone to chipping or breaking.

There is no best all around steel or best all around knife design. Some are the best for a given job. Others are the Jack of all trades and master of none. To me part of the fun of making knives is trying to figure out what is best for an application.

Doug


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  #6  
Old 10-12-2011, 11:26 AM
dirtydancer dirtydancer is offline
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I guess, if I were to look at the most important aspect it would be toughness. my clients can deal with a blade that rusts (a bit). or one that needs to be resharpened on occasion, but broken blades are unacceptable to them. I know that if I was looking for toughness alone, then 420 HC would be my first choice, but I want something that holds a better edge than that. and I hear CPM S30v is amazingly tough, but you can't resharpen it in the field... I just want a steel I know I can put my name behind.
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  #7  
Old 10-12-2011, 11:29 AM
dirtydancer dirtydancer is offline
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while we're on the topic of "tough" maybe I have my lines crossed... I mean strong, in the way you could hang off it or use it as a lever as well as hack with it and not worry about the blade chipping if you hit something hard here and there. as this is the kind of activities I have seen some of my blades used for thus far.
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  #8  
Old 10-12-2011, 12:19 PM
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SVanderkolff SVanderkolff is offline
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Sounds like you should really look at some of the carbon steels. I don't do a lot of "have to be tough " knives but from what I know you lose a bit of toughness when you go stainless. If tough is the top of the need list then carbon steel may be the way to go. Unfortunately you wil need someone else to chime in on specificly which carbon steels to try.
Steve


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  #9  
Old 10-12-2011, 01:25 PM
Doug Lester Doug Lester is offline
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We need to clear up some deffinitions here. Toughness is the ability to resist breakage. Strength is the ability to resist deformation. Hardness is the ability to resist indentation. Wear resistance is, well, the ability to resist wear.

Hardness and wear resistance usually increases and decreases with each other. Toughness and strength can increase together but not always or to the same degree. For example, those high carbon rail road spikes that a lot of people like to make knives from. They are required to be tough enough to bend almost 180 degrees without breaking so they are much tougher than strong. As wear resistance increases sharpenability decreases.

You are very right about some of the "super" steels, such as CPMS30V. They will hold an edge for a long time but to sharpen them you need a ceramic belt or a diamond hone. With something like 5160, 9260, 52100, the 10XX series, or the W series you might be able to find a piece of broken crockery or a smooth, hard stone to sharpen it with. That said, there is no excuse for going into the field with a knife that you don't have the means to sharpen with you. But if you loose your stone your not nearly as likely to be up a creek with a dull knife with a simpler steel like you would be with a womder steel.

Those harder steels tend also to be less tough.

The above is why I wished you luck with my first post and it's something that all knife makers have to deal with. You will just have to find the ballance that you want.

Doug


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Last edited by Doug Lester; 11-20-2011 at 04:58 PM.
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  #10  
Old 10-12-2011, 04:24 PM
Ed Tipton Ed Tipton is offline
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From your concerns, I personally would not go with a stainless steel, but with a high carbon steel. Don't be fooled by the title "simple carbon steels". The 10XX, 52100, W1, W2, and 5160 are all examples of steels that will not only take and hold a good edge, but also stand up to a lot that knives are never meant or designed to withstand. Of the high carbon steels mentioned, 5160 is the recognized "king of tough". It is the same steel commonly used in the leaf springs of trucks and trailers...but is heat treated somewhat differently for a knife. It is also the steel that is most often selected as the one used for the ABS Journeyman's Test because it is generally the easiest to get to pass all of the stringent requirements. Any serviceman owning a properly heat treated knife made from any of these steels, and a bit of oil would be well served. Any of these steels will rust if not cared for.
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  #11  
Old 10-13-2011, 04:34 PM
dirtydancer dirtydancer is offline
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Thanks guys

You guys have been more than helpful... and in a lot of ways have talked me into sticking with what I have for stainess and simply offering a coated High carbon steel as an alternative for those who want it. Like I said, maybe I am underestimating the 440c (or rather others have) and are talking me into changing it up as with everything I read other steels are supposed to be "tougher". Between my own brutal testing and real world use my knives have ran the gamut from being hammered through stop signs to being blown up in afghanistan and so far, none have failed. I was just seeing what people thought about other stainless in their experience and to see if these "super steels" live up to the hype.
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  #12  
Old 10-13-2011, 05:57 PM
Doug Lester Doug Lester is offline
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You may well have the best compromise for the needs that you want to meet with the 440C. Let me put out anouther idea that has perculated through my thought process. Grind your knives from 52100 flat stock then, if you have or are willing to create the capability, to austemper the blade at 500-510 degrees for one hour. That should leave you with about 100% bainite and an HRc of around 58. The bainite will be tougher than the pearlite formed by edge quenching and will be tougher than tempered martensite at the same HRc point. Then, as you mentioned above, you could coat the steel for corrosion resistance.

One of my projects that is waiting for me on my shop floor is an eletric roaster that I need to see if I can disable the stop to allow me to take the temperature up to 510 degrees. I already have a roaster that can get up to 450 degrees that I use. That temp is just a little below the Ms point for 52100, which is about 490 degrees. That allows somewhere in the neighborhood of 25% martensite formation and takes about three hours, accoding to an ITT diagram that I have, to finish converting the rest of the austinite to lower bainite. I usually give it four hours just to be on the safe side. The HRc should be around 59-60.

I use peanut oil in the roaster as a quenchant.

Just a thought.

Doug


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Old 10-13-2011, 07:12 PM
dirtydancer dirtydancer is offline
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Sorry Mr Lester... Guru indeed. I neglected to mention that I still don't do my own heat treating yet as I simply haven't had the time to get into that part of the equasion and I leave that to the experts so far. A question on the topic of 5160 and 52100. Am I going to be able to get satisfactory results with these steels via stock removal or is their tru magic only revealed after being forged? as I have only dabbled in forging so far... incidentally resulting in one half finished blade as well as a missing tooth after knocking it out with said blade.
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Old 10-13-2011, 09:31 PM
Doug Lester Doug Lester is offline
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I have read some comments that 52100 benifits from forging, though I know of no reason why that would be true. If you are not doing your own heat treating yet you would probably do better to stick with the 440C or at least an air quenching steel. I would think that it would be difficult to find a heat treater that would be willing to get very fancy with treating oil quenching steel and do austempering. Edge quenching is something that you should do for yourself. You could build a simple gas forge to austinize the simpler steel in but a kiln would be better, especially if you are thinking of continuing to use stainless or even some of the air quenching tool steels. As far as tempering goes, the oil or water quenching tool or spring steels can be tempered in the kitchen oven, or toaster oven if the wife is not open to that. Of course austempering combines quenching and tempering together, even if you use two baths.

If you want to look at what a heat treating kiln would cost you go to USA Knife Maker Supply. Tracy carries a few models. Of course if you could find a use pottery kiln, especially one with a digital control, that could be used also.

There is no reason for you not to stay with stainless or other air quenching steels if they fill your needs. There are some knife makers who don't get into heat treating their own blades. They either don't want to spend time doing something that they feel others can do just as well or better or they don't want to lay out the money to buy the equiptment. Others feel that heat treating is so critical to good knife making that they should be doing for themselves. There's no right or wrong. It's what works for you.

Doug


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  #15  
Old 10-16-2011, 07:43 PM
dirtydancer dirtydancer is offline
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I've just chopped through a full whitetail deer antler (100+ hits to get through) and there is no apparent damage to the blade at all, so I'm starting to think I can't knock the steel much with my geometry and the heat treat Guy I use. I got the idea from one of the old magazine adds I saw where a guy used an antler to test his blades... I took it way further and I was impressed big-time. I will get into my own heat treating once I can afford the time and investment but for now I can't complain.
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