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High-Performance Blades Sharing ideas for getting the most out of our steel.

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  #1  
Old 09-14-2001, 10:24 AM
Rob Simonich
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Input from soldiers wanted!


With the recent events, it looks like there may be a great demand for highest quality combat blades. I would like input from soldiers on what they would like to see in a combat blade. I am not talking fighters here, but multi tasked blades that can be used for everything. What do you demand and expect from this type of high performance blade?
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  #2  
Old 09-14-2001, 10:59 AM
JHossom
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Good question, Rob, and an important distinction. I make fighters, not combat knives. Combat knives must do more than fighters, which are designed for fighting only and not digging a foxhole or sawing through a wall if necessary.

Hopefully one of your blades will know the sweet taste of revenge...
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  #3  
Old 09-14-2001, 03:40 PM
ansoknives
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I would very much hear from soldiers too!...We need to make some hardcore combat knives soon!
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  #4  
Old 09-14-2001, 07:17 PM
CKDadmin
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Cheesy ... but I have a name that comes to mind ... a mark.

AT Series (Anti-Terrorist)


Rob, I spoke to Darrel Ralph today and he told me about your plan to prioritize your orders to military clients ... that's an excellent idea. I wish you would open this idea to all makers ...

Alex
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  #5  
Old 09-14-2001, 08:14 PM
BCB27
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Rob,

How about an airman's input? I believe in using the best available tool for the task at hand. Often times, that doesn't include a knife. For digging, use an entrenching tool. For sawing, a folding saw. For general duties, I have found a multitool to be invaluable. These items are all easily carried and are typically issued in the field. So, if I were to select a particular knife type, it would be an all-purpose small drop point. I would chose one of the stainless steels for ease of maintenance, in particular one that is easily sharpened. The preceding is, of course, my opinion only.

Brett
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  #6  
Old 09-14-2001, 08:54 PM
William
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I am a former Marine and we were all isued the Kabar. The only problems I have found with it were an uncomfterble gard and the tendancy to break in the handle section.

I would like to see something with a spear or clip point, 7-9" blade, 1/4"-3/16" thick at ricaso with good distal taper, convex ground and a diferentialy hardened L-6 blade with a nonreflective coating such as titanium nitride or parkeraized, a narrow tange with full steel gard and screwed on flat steel pomel cap, for use as hammer, with canvas based mycarta grip with ether heavy sand blasting or light checkering. On a normal use knife I perfer a smooth grip to avoid blisters, on a combat knife however, better a few blisters than slipery grip!

The sheath should be heavy waxed harness leather with multiple eyelets so that it can be attacted to the combat harness and a good quality retaining strap and snap are a must as most are hung upside down. Kydex would be even better except that I have been in some places where I have seen it hit 150 deg. F. in the shade and would wory about it deforming.

As for ease of mantainace, I will personly garontee that personal equipment used by our armed forces will be well maintaned, whether it needs it or not.

This is just my thoughts on my experainces and know some people who would disagree, but if I was still active, this is what I would cary.
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  #7  
Old 09-14-2001, 10:26 PM
Rob Simonich
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Input from soldiers wanted!


This is exactly the stuff I want to hear! Keep it comming guys. I also believe in using the right tool for the job, but sometimes that is not possible. How about busting bands and prying open crates? I have been making a few knives with band breakers on them, basically a sharpened area on the back of the blade. Works ok, and doubles as an edge that can be abused if you have to. I know soldiers can be very hard on gear and at the same time as mentioned the gear is well maintained. Here is a link to the picture of the knife I mentioned.
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  #8  
Old 09-14-2001, 10:28 PM
JHossom
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William, I am curious why you chose differentially tempered L6 steel?
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  #9  
Old 09-15-2001, 12:50 PM
William
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L-6 is not my favorite steel, but is a close second. L-6 will hold an excelent edge, can be easly sharpened in the field and with a hard edge portion and springy back is virtualy indistructable.

One test blade I made nearly worked me to death trying to break it. After bending 90 deg. back and forth many times it finaly gave up.

In the field a bent knife is better than a broken knife and can be straightened. My experiance with stainless steel is that when it is hard enough to hold an edge it is prone to breaking. You could make it thicker, but you add weight, You could make it softer, but you lose cutting ability. As for corrosion resitance, you want a combat knife to be non-reflective, a good coating will protect from rust, not that I've ever seen much rust on military hardware.

As for straping on crates, I often carried a leatherman tool and also a pocket knife for delicate work.

IMHO any good carbon alloy steel will make a good combat knife if properly heat treated and designed simply because carbon steel can have a hard edge and soft back and tange. L-6 is simply the toughest steel I have ever seen.

I don't have any experaince with the laminated blade steels, but a stainless San Mai might work also to give good flexibility and a corosion resistant blade.
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  #10  
Old 09-15-2001, 01:48 PM
JHossom
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Good points.

Let me put to rest one myth though. Stainless knives are only inferior if not made properly. In independent tests, I've had an ATS-34 blade breeze through tests that broke or bent 5160, A2 and blades made with some other steels. In fact it has remained the tester's benchmark blade to which he compares all blades, and has passed all the tests along side all the blades he has ever tested. I also have one of Rob's blades in ATS-34 that I would happily take anywhere to do anything.

I've personally never seen a well constructed knife made with ANY steel break in anything approaching normal use. I've seen edges chip, but not a blade break, except when done intentionally. I have seen lesser knives made with stick tangs, similar to the Kabar, fail at the guard. That's one reason I use only full tangs. Let me quickly say though, I've never seen a well made stick tang knife break like that.

If you're not going to use a knife for prying, the only thing that really matters is the edge.

I use a lot of CPM-3V (not stainless, but extremely tough with excellent wear resistance) in anticipation that someone may want to use a knife for rough purposes I can't even imagine, and they are. I'm amazed at some of the things people do with knives. It's one drawback is that it does rust, and in tropical or coastal environments that sucks. Salt or brackish water will rust even stainless in less than 24 hours if the blade is not protected or cleaned, and the very first thing to rust is the most vulnerable spot, the edge. Once the edge rusts a little, it goes dull almost with the first cut.

Here's what I see is the BIG problem with hard use field blades. You're just not always going to have the right tool for the right job. Crowbars, saws, and even entrenching tools are never, seldom or not always with you. You have to anticipate a knife will be asked to do everything from cutting food to chopping through moderately hard materials to digging to heavy prying to wet work in which you might encounter even hardened steel. Edge abuse is certainly to be expected, so how do you make that edge tolerant of hard impacts and prying pressures and at the same time have it very easy to sharpen? How do you deal with environmental issues without more routine maintenance than you might have the luxury of providing? How do you make a knife easy to wield and robust all at the same time.

I see Rob's quest as the holy grail of knifemaking. How can you make a knife that satisfies everyone's wish list?

Obviously the answer is a custom knife, but that necessarily translates into very high costs. It's certainly not something that you can put into production to serve large numbers of combatants. IF you look carefully at Rob's design, it has a whole lot going on in a single knife that can do a whole lot of things.

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  #11  
Old 09-15-2001, 05:31 PM
CSJones
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Hi guys,
first off I am not in the military.

I found this topic very interesting. The distinction between a fighter and a combat knife I understand. A combat knife is used for a all around knife and a fighter is a specific purpose. When I think of a fighter I think of something that has a totally different balance and feel than that of a combat knife. Should the combat be more geared to chopping and prying with a heavier blade feel. Something also light enough to be quick in the hand for defense use? Am I all wet in this regard? When I am checking a knife for the balance I can almost feel a pivot point in which the handle and tip are exchanged/rotated with the wrist. I am not a knife fighter but what is the perfect compromise for balance in a combat blade.

Is the Holy Grail the perfect cross of a fighter and combat knife then applying the steel suited to the design?

Something said earlier was the ability to service the edge in the field. That seems very important to me.

Thanks
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  #12  
Old 09-15-2001, 05:46 PM
Rob Simonich
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Good input


Actually Jerry, the knife you got from me is 3-V! I am sure you are happy to hear that! ha ha

Jerry and CS Jones brought up some good points.

There are so many variables that if you think about it for a few minutes it makes your head swim!

The Holy Grail, those 3 words scare the hell out of me! The Holy Grail for me in unreachable, and if it were ever to be reached I would lock up my shop and go get a job as the fun would be gone! The Holy grail would be weigh under an ounce, never rust, never need sharpening, cut like a laser, never break, chip or bend, etc.

The knife above is only a concept that gives the user a few more choices than say a pure fighter or a hunting knife, and is certainly not the pefect combat knife. Thanks for the comments so far, keep them comming!
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  #13  
Old 09-15-2001, 08:35 PM
JHossom
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Re: Good input


3V?

Far Out!!

Now that makes it extra special. Thanks Rob.

The one you got from me is 3V too!
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  #14  
Old 09-15-2001, 09:13 PM
William
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Re: Good input


Jhossom, first I'd like to state that I never said stainless steel is inferior, with all knives of all steels the heat treat is esential to a good blade.

I've tested ats-34 that was heat and cryo treated and was a good performer, much tougher and easyer to sharpen and held an edge better than a factory blade. However, when put against properly heat treated L-6, 52100, and O-1, it falls short on toughness. That is not to say that it is'nt tough, just not as tough as the carbon steels, again properly heat treated. I will go so far as to say that if I had to chose a stainless knife, I would go for Ats-34 or 154-cm or posibly D-2 since I have heard that it is posible to give it a soft back treatment.

I've never broken a knife of any steel in normal use, but have broken many a blade with extream abuse. When I would break a carbon alloy blade with a diferential heat treat, the edge would crack or chip, but the knife would remain whole. When you get a crack in a stainless knife the crack keeps going and you have two parts of a knife.

As for rusty edges, now that I think about it, my Kaybars never developed rust on the edge, even in salt water and the tropics because I kept it oiled with CLP and shapened it nearly every day, right after cleaning my rifle.

As for Rob's knife, I will have to say that I would have no qualms about carying it in the field. As you said, it has a lot going on.

As to the perfect combat knife, no such animal exist. Each individual has differnt needs and preferances. If one uses a knife withen it's limits, blade steel is not the most important consideration. A perfect example is the titanium SEAL dive knife, It excells at its intended purpass and environment, but does not do so well in other environments, although if used within reason would function well.

When all is said and done, it all comes down to personal preferance and experiance as to blade desighn and construction, what works for one won't neciseraly work for anougther.
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  #15  
Old 09-15-2001, 11:08 PM
Rob Simonich
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3-V


Yeah Jerry, I get that 3-V Hunter Killer of yours out about once a week and fondle it too! That be one mean mother without looking like it!
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