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High-Performance Blades Sharing ideas for getting the most out of our steel.

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  #1  
Old 11-14-2001, 10:04 PM
birdog4
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420HC


I know that 420HC is used by most knife manufacturers 'cause it's easy to punch out. Can it's quality
be enhanced by cryo or any other methods? Can it be heat-treated in the backyard shop? I got a mess of it and don't know if it's worth fooling with. Thanks bruce
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  #2  
Old 11-15-2001, 10:00 AM
JHossom
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Probably not worth fooling with. You can certainly heat treat it in a good heat treating oven (not usually kept in the backyad though), and it will benefit from cryogenic treatment. My take on wrestliing with questionable steels has always been, "why bother". Good steel is pretty cheap when you consider how much time and how much of your own pride you put into a knife. Why compromise that for the sake of saving maybe $10 worth of steel?
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  #3  
Old 01-08-2002, 06:58 PM
Sam Wereb
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I appreciate that this is the high-perfomance blades forum, and, with due respect to better minds than mine, I think we might regret it if the foregoing is ENTIRELY the last word on this steel.

420HC can be hardened to 58HRC and is tougher, there, than its chemistry looks on paper. Moreover, it is especially stainless. (No it isn't, in any way, equal to the Crucible steels.)

I have two blades of 420HC. One is a well known manufacturer's neck-knife, and the other is a homemade kitchen knife. Kitchens aren't combat zones, but they really are destructive environments for knife blades.

If I ever get around to making that camp knife I want, I will try 420HC first. I often forget to pack a hatchet, and usually end up leaving my camp knife out in the rain. I need a sharp, stainless, tough blade that I can re-sharpen on a stone.

I am not the final arbiter of alloy-suitability, but I think this steel is universally underrated. I hope you didn't throw it out.


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  #4  
Old 01-08-2002, 09:02 PM
JHossom
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Sam, is there anywhere on the web I can get some technical info on 420HC? I'll rise to the bait, just need a little help.
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  #5  
Old 01-08-2002, 10:02 PM
Sam Wereb
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Here's a nominal analysis. Naturally, every heat is different.

C .40 - .54
Cr 12.00 - 14.00
Mn .50
Mo .60 - 1.00
V .20 - .50
Si .40 - .80

There is virtually no technical information about this steel on the web, though I could refer you to someone if you really want the yield and tensile strengths at measured hardnesses.

It is certainly not a "super-alloy" so it isn't studied by many custom makers. The relatively low carbon content turns every one off. To them I'd say that free Chromium does alot more than resist rust.

(I know a guy who is writing a book about blade steel alloys, but he's a piker, and a real smart-aleck.)

You made some excellent points, which still stand. It isn't cheap when you consider how much harder it would be to sell a knife made of this.

However, if you have a pile of it laying around the shop and you can get good heat treating done....


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  #6  
Old 01-08-2002, 10:32 PM
JHossom
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I'll have to think about this, but let me make a couple observations. There are some great knives forged out of 1050 steel (0.5% carbon) and CPM-3V contains just 0.8% carbon, and a fair amount of that is occupied by the 3% vanadium. Still it will hit Rc61 with ease, and still be as tough as any steel made.

From the numbers, there might be some potential here, especially with proper tempering. The pinch of vanadium is more for grain refinement than it is for wear resistance, so it should take a decent edge.

Just offhand, I'd say it should make good kitchen knives, which you don't want to be too hard anyway. It would probably make pretty good machetes and other such heavy use utility blades.

Interesting challenge.
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  #7  
Old 01-08-2002, 11:17 PM
Sam Wereb
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Yes, exactly, on every point. I'm not making up the part about 58HRC, I'd like you to note.

The CPM alloys have lengthened the field of blade steel alloys. I think it can be broader as well.

Good heat treatment is no longer a knifemaking variable but a constant. I think that we might benefit if some top makers would revisit some older alloys to study them for suitability in modern designs.


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  #8  
Old 01-09-2002, 09:10 AM
JHossom
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Well, I just learned that Buck uses 420HC on a lot of their knives and ahve even gotten it to Rc59 on test blades. Not too surprising since they were likely tempered by Paul Bos. Cryogenics probably gets an extra point or two.

OK, I'm convinced. You could make a decent blade with 420HC steel. It might be fun to try. So Bruce, I changed my mind. You should go for it. You can't temper it yourself though. You'll need to have that done professionally.
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  #9  
Old 01-09-2002, 01:43 PM
birdog4
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420hc


Thanks for the feedback, fellas. Kinda thought I could use it for something other than bolsters. I have a 100 or so folders with this steel and they vary in cutting and edgeholding. Some good, some not.the fella who gave it to me said it was
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  #10  
Old 01-09-2002, 03:36 PM
JHossom
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Re: 420hc


Bruce, the key is in the heat treat. Get it done by someone good, so you can get to the Rc59 level which is where those "good" ones were.
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  #11  
Old 01-09-2002, 07:25 PM
C L Wilkins
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Re: 420hc


To play devil's advocate and maybe a little food for thought on this thread...

420HC has the reputation of being uh, how to put it politely, a cheap, poor performing steel that is inexpensive to produce and very easy on machinery and equipement. It can take almost a chrome-plated look and will shine like a new diamond in a goat's ...well you get the idea.

Now, that's the reputation. That may not necessarily be reality but I learned a this very profound and important statement a long time ago:

"The customer's perception is our reality."

Granted, it may be an OK steel and may possibly make a fairly decent knife ~but~ try to convince a potential customer of that and well, to be frank, its another story. To be quite honest, I really don't know of anyone that would take 420HC over AUS6, 440A or any other steel for that matter, regardless of the makeup and chemistry due to the reputation. I suppose that it has been touted as being a somewhat inferior steel in the knife industy. An "also ran" as you will.

Please don't read anything into this, I am really not being negative towards this steel. This is just the basic conception or possibly the misconception of this particular steel. Right or wrong, anyone would have a hard time convincing the knife industry, particularly the custom knife industry, otherwise.

If you were to set up a table at a knife show with the steel, I am afraid that you wouldn't have too very much luck trying to sell any knives made of this steel. Why? Its all perception, isn't it.

Craig
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  #12  
Old 01-09-2002, 09:19 PM
JHossom
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Re: 420hc


I agree it might make a knife hard to sell, but that's based on preconceived notions that it won't make a serviceable knife - thanks in no small part to some of the BS that flies on some forums. Fact is, it might be a great choice for a diving knife. If you're going into the boonies with little liklihood of having anything better than a rock for sharpening, it might be ideal. Certainly it would make a great machete, parang, khukri, etc. And in view of the fact that Buck has been using it for a number of years, it has probably dressed and skinned more deer than any other modern steel you can name.

The question was could you make a good knife with it. I've talked myself into a "yes" answer. It would be interesting to see just how good.
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  #13  
Old 01-09-2002, 10:01 PM
birdog4
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420hc


Not only Buck but Case, Queen and most of the other knives made by Queen.
My thoughts were that if these outfits can make a passible knife from this steel, why can't I? Providing that I get a good heat treat.
I've never worked any stainless before and had 100lb. of this dropped in my lap.
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  #14  
Old 01-09-2002, 10:11 PM
C L Wilkins
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Re: 420hc


I agree that it would make a serviceable cutting implement. Basically what I was stating was the "preconceived notion" or the perception of quite a few folks within the industry.

Bruce, let us know how this turns out...it is interesting.

Craig

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  #15  
Old 01-10-2002, 08:38 AM
birdog4
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420hc


Preconceived notions? hmmm kinda like" a ceramic WHAT ?"
I'll post when I get some finished and get some testing done. I do a lot of home butchering and them hog bristles put an edge to the test.
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