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High-Performance Blades Sharing ideas for getting the most out of our steel.

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  #1  
Old 01-30-2006, 05:50 PM
Ssj2 Ssj2 is offline
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True wootz Damascus

I have read alot about this steel every thing from it's compsition to how good it was in making swords back in the day. one would almost say to good, with the abilty to cut thru almost anything and stay sharp and never dull. Read one time swords made of Damascus could even cut thru rock . With a compstion of 1.5% carbon and other elements most notably VA,MO and TI all under .5% it seems to be like a steel that would harden to a very high rockwell and keep a very sharp edge, however it also looks like this steel would be brittle but according to what I read about it not one of these swords suffered from breakage.

Just wondering what people's thoughts are on this and if they have ever worked with the steel or know any one that has. Also if it holds an edge and is tough as the hype makes it out to be how come it's not in use in alot more knives and swords now even after the way to make it was rediscuvered sometime in the mid 1990s
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  #2  
Old 01-30-2006, 06:05 PM
Larrin Larrin is offline
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There were some studies done on at least some of the properties of wootz by John Verhoeven and Al Pendray, you may find them interesting. Scroll to the bottom of this page: http://mse.iastate.edu/index.php?id=52
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  #3  
Old 01-30-2006, 07:06 PM
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Dragon cutlery Dragon cutlery is offline
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nothing is ever as good as the hype or it wouldt be caled hype cutting threw rock sounds like the cutting threw barrels of guns with kitanas not likely


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Old 01-30-2006, 11:41 PM
Ssj2 Ssj2 is offline
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I've actully read some of John Verhoeven stuff but thanks for posting the site anyway. Yea thats where I learned the composition of the steel. Kind of weird how he says that Damascus really wasn't that tough as compared to other newer generation steels and that the orginal Damascus swords didn't mesure any higher then rc 38
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  #5  
Old 01-31-2006, 12:14 AM
Chris Meyer Chris Meyer is offline
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Kevin Cashen's article on "The Anatomy of Hype" might interest you. Here is the link; Anatomy of Hype


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  #6  
Old 01-31-2006, 01:52 AM
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Andrew Garrett Andrew Garrett is offline
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Very entertaining and profound article. I had to check my pride at the door as I had to admit to being a victim of some of the very hype he mentions.

I am a wiser knifemaker...


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  #7  
Old 01-31-2006, 08:43 AM
Greg obach Greg obach is offline
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haha... nice article
good steel will be nothing more than just good steel... it has its material limits

i get the feeling he's been bottling that one in for some time...
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  #8  
Old 01-31-2006, 09:42 AM
Kevin R. Cashen Kevin R. Cashen is offline
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Geez guys! I just clicked on this link hoping to get the latest poop in wootz and I end up seeing my rantings discussed .

With that much carbon, as you folks have already figured out, there will be significant brittleness if you don't keep some of that carbon out of solution and out of the grain boundaries. Interestingly enough, many of the original weapons that have been tested show a very low rockwell (45 or less). They were wise enough to let the carbides keep the edge cutting and the soft metal around them to hold the whole package together. There was a time that a sharp stone on the end of a stick was such an awesome secret that it could give one an advantage over any other weapon or tool, but progress does move on...

P.S. It may look like I had a belly full in the article, but the fact is I had been doing some serious belly laughing, I was jsut finishing Ann Coulters last book when I wrote that article, I think it had some influence. I am glad you forced me to look at it again, as I saw some ugly typo's that I need to fix.

Last edited by Kevin R. Cashen; 01-31-2006 at 10:33 AM.
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  #9  
Old 01-31-2006, 09:55 AM
Jeff Pringle Jeff Pringle is offline
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Quote:
how come it's not in use in alot more knives and swords now even after the way to make it was rediscuvered sometime in the mid 1990s
Turns out it's really difficult to make the stuff, and even harder to forge it into useable form. I guess the hard part is getting each melt to come out with a forgeable ingot (the way I do it every ingot comes out with a different carbon content as well) - Getting a couple pounds of melted steel in a crucible is not very hard, but still past the commitment level of most bladesmiths, and that's just the beginning of a steep learning curve to get material you can make blades from.
I think it out performs W1, but my testing is less than rigorous - I like it 'cause it's rare, pretty and mysterious, so I'm probably a victim of my own hype! Even if it was a relatively lame steel for knives, I'd use it because of the history, and so I could say I made the steel that I made the knife from.
I'm sure some of the modern high-alloy blade steels are much better in edge holding & other critical knife parameters; wootz is, just as KC says, an outdated technology.
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  #10  
Old 01-31-2006, 10:29 AM
Kevin R. Cashen Kevin R. Cashen is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeff Pringle
... wootz is, just as KC says, an outdated technology.
But then that is what makes it so cool. After all, hammering any blades out by hand is a pretty obsolete concept, but that is why they are so cool

Last edited by Kevin R. Cashen; 01-31-2006 at 10:34 AM.
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  #11  
Old 01-31-2006, 11:04 AM
Greg obach Greg obach is offline
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it maybe out dated... hard to produce... even, inefficient to produce..... but it makes the most beautiful steel by far ...

remember ... there was also alot of pattern welded blades in middle east area... so why would one steel be worth so much more... personally, i don't think it was based on function but more on the steels beauty. ...... ... if you look at some of the arabic texts... the catagorys for were mostly for pattern/waterings... so it was more of an esthetic thing..
--

as for low Rc....... gee... when i sent out a couple of emails to museums asking for their ideas on viking sword heat treatment...... the few responses i got said that they suspected the blades were quenched by pouring water on the edge... as these swords mostly had very low Rc hardness
-- so low Rc's weren't uncommon

- if wootz was so brittle .....why would someone use it as a sword steel ?????
it makes no sense

well anyhow.... it's neither here nor there.. ... just more to think about

everyones got their pet steels....its just hard to weed through both the modern and ancient hype ....

Greg
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  #12  
Old 01-31-2006, 12:35 PM
Kevin R. Cashen Kevin R. Cashen is offline
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Shheeez, perhaps I should just stick to writing articles, because regardless of how softly I step with facts I just can’t seem to avoid ruffling feathers in forums. Fossil ivory is the most beautiful of handle materials yet it is a pain to work with at times and is not very practical on a using knife when compared to other materials. Folks tell me they wouldn’t have it on one of their knives, and I don’t take it personally at all but just keep using it and feel it is worth every penny.

With the exception of scholars like Ager, Lang or Tylecote, museum staff are notoriously poor sources, in my experience, for field research information on the actual processes that may have been used. The responses being very few and those containing information as limited as “pouring water on edges” is a testament to that. Most early European swords were soft, by modern standards, but they reached this condition by incomplete hardening, or by successful hardening and then a tempering to a less brittle state. European blades achieved higher carbon levels as time went on but probably rarely exceeded the eutectoid by too much- and that is a good thing.

Low rockwells were not uncommon, but very low rockwells from the avoidance of quenching and tempering, and still having a durable cutting edge was very uncommon and was probably one of the major contributors to the wootz mystique.

Now I can completely detach my opinion from sound metallurgical fact:
Extreme hypereutectoids have a lot of extra carbides, if you don’t find a place to put them outside of the grain boundaries or in the formation of plate martensite, that steel will be brittle when quenched, that is just the way it is.

Far from knocking the ancient smiths I am complimenting them for the ingenuity of using alternative treatments to lock those carbides up with alloying (as is covered in Verhoeven and Pendray’s well known writing), thus giving us the patterning that so defines that material, as well as overcoming embrittlement by not hardening at all and letting the carbides do the cutting. As eveident by the fact that if you heat the stuff high enough to get total solution, you will loose the pattern.

I like to think of it as playdoh filled with diamonds, but Ric Furrer who has infinitely more intimate experience with the material, corrects me and says it is “diamonds suspended in pudding”. So I estimate the strength higher than a guy who has actually put a rockwell indenter into some old blades.

Today, due to alloying, we can achieve strength through higher hardness and still have higher toughness. That is progress, but is it as pretty? A modern car is much more efficient than a model-T, but is it as classy?

Last edited by Kevin R. Cashen; 01-31-2006 at 12:37 PM.
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  #13  
Old 01-31-2006, 02:36 PM
Chris Meyer Chris Meyer is offline
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Kevin,

There's no need to apologize for the truth just because it's inconvenient for some people.



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Last edited by Chris Meyer; 01-31-2006 at 02:38 PM.
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  #14  
Old 01-31-2006, 04:11 PM
Greg obach Greg obach is offline
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no no... .. i was just putting some info out there.... not ruffled in the slightest.. (this internet makes everyone sound like their bunched up ... )

...... i've made crucible steel for awhile and those blades work well... its a very visual material... and it makes me happy when it turns out right

-
-- honestly... i get the same feeling from those museum staff... oh well, just more hype


seriously.... once these rumours get started.... it dam near takes an atomic bomb to stop them.. .. ... like packing steel edges....or cutting gun barrels ... your article makes big sense.....
its just too bad that wootz gets this " Super Steel " label when it really is just a good steel....
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  #15  
Old 01-31-2006, 06:00 PM
Kevin R. Cashen Kevin R. Cashen is offline
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(this internet makes everyone sound like their bunched up ... )

Here, here! I will agreee to that 100%, after all the times I have said it myself. All of your points are well taken Greg, if we were face to face I would offer to buy you a good single malt and we could have a good talk about what we both like about the materials in question. Unless of course you don't like single malt, I couldn't bring myself to sit with a person who doesn't appreciate a good single malt
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