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High-Performance Blades Sharing ideas for getting the most out of our steel.

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  #1  
Old 03-30-2005, 11:04 AM
Riley White Riley White is offline
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cutting edge shape/design

I would like to open up a discussion over what the "ideal blade grind and edge" is for the different types of knives that are out there. I have never made or started to make a knife for cutting competition, but obviously I have considered the way I would do it. Another thing I would like to throw in is the "ideal steel" for the competition-cutting knife.

I have noticed that the most common blade is flat ground and several of them are 5160. I have also read that some of the makers prefer to leave the edge a little rough.
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  #2  
Old 03-30-2005, 10:27 PM
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I dont think its something that can be "ideal", what you make best with the steel you know the best ,is the best.Some grinds will be better then others for cutting,some steels for edge holding but its he who knows his skills will make the better knife, as for cutting comps, they are IMHO 75% technique and 25% knife, so what works for you is what works for you in all ways


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  #3  
Old 03-31-2005, 09:58 AM
Riley White Riley White is offline
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As I thought about the "ideal edge/blade design" for the cutting competition I did consider the technique. Technique is the greater part of the equation. If I were to race any of the top sprinters it wouldn't matter what I wore or what they wore, I would loose. However, if two athletes of similar skill level were competing, the equipment would or could make a difference. It is that difference that I am thinking about.

That may be why there are no responses; trade secret and all that.
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Old 03-31-2005, 10:28 AM
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I dont think there is any trade secerts in knifemaking its simply a matter of educating ones self about edge geometry, knife balance, heat treat ,metallurgy ect, the rest is technique


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  #5  
Old 03-31-2005, 10:52 AM
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Here's my 2 cents worth.

I think the reason you are getting slow response is due to the questions being asked. What you are asking for is an enormous amount of info. Not everyone wants or has the time to sit down and answer all of your questions. You obviously have internet access... Use it, there is so much info out there. I know it's easier to try and get a quick response here on the KN (I do it too) but don't be affraid to take the time and figure these answers out for your self. Do you think all of these guys here on the KN were just told how to do what they do? Or did a lot them figure it out on their own?

In an issue of blade magazine, maybe towards the end of last year or early this year, there was an article about the different blade grinds. I would find that and read it. Very good info. In a nut shell, the article was basically about building a strong blade. They did a comparative between three blade grinds; convex, flat, and hollow. Overall the convex won strength, but the hollow had the best cutting edge. Plus there was a lot more info than that...

Basically, I think, each grind has it's purpose... Trying to build a cutting comp. winning knife will depend upon your knowledge. Knowledge of the particular steel you are using, knowledge of grinds, knowledge of sharpening, and knowledge of physical self control.

Chris Nilluka
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  #6  
Old 03-31-2005, 01:57 PM
Riley White Riley White is offline
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Thank you guys, I have already done some research and have favorite steels (1095 and 5160). I even have a favorite way of grinding the blade. Most of the knives are hunting/skinning and I use a hollow grind most of the time. I guess I was trying to put the finishing touch on my "research". The next step, I suppose, is to build a knife and try it out.
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  #7  
Old 03-31-2005, 02:25 PM
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Jamey Saunders Jamey Saunders is offline
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I think if I had to purchase a knife for a cutting competition (cost no object) I would go for one with a 52100 blade, flat ground with a Moran edge.

If I had to make that knife, it would probably be a complete failure, because I don't forge, and I'm not familiar enough with 52100 to heat treat it properly, as it is very, very finicky.

I think that this may be one of those things where there is really no "best" anything. I'm sure that a properly designed, ground, and heat treated blade made from S30V would perform very close to as well, if not better than, a blade of 5160 or 1095.

I think one of the main reasons that you see a predominance of carbon steel knives in cutting competition is that the competitions are usually at an ABS event, and 99.999% of the knifemakers out there can't forge stainless or high-alloy steels!


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  #8  
Old 03-31-2005, 04:54 PM
Riley White Riley White is offline
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I did read about Mr. Fouler making a blade with a student out of 52100 about six weeks ago. If I remember correctly It was reported that they had made somewhere around 450 or more cuts through a Hemp rope before they quit testing it. The knife was still very sharp and quite capable of going on. Another steel that seems to win (if memory serves) is 1080 or 1084. And I think they were flat ground too.
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  #9  
Old 04-11-2005, 12:51 PM
schwarzer schwarzer is offline
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blade shape and material

This is just my opinion supported by about twenty seven years of following the blade testing bunch. Starting with Fikes and Fogg. These methods are easily proved to your self.
Hollow grinding provides a usable edge much longer than a flat ground blade in a working knife. It does not cut as efficiently as a flat ground blade Because of the flow resistance of the material being cut. Try Cutting heavy material like thick leather or wheel cheese with both blade types and it becomes readily apparent. Edge geometry is critical. It takes a little apple seed geometry to support a flat ground blade in hard use. In cutting competitions. These blades excel.
The ABS does not allow stainless blades so far. Stainless steels do not respond well to forging except in very controlled conditions of time and temperature. These conditions are well out side the range of the average bladesmith
Some of the modern powder metal stainless steels have conquered the large chrome carbide formation that is the Achilles heel of some stainless blade material. Large chrome carbides tend to flake out of the cutting edge under hard use. The Knife makers guild has a competition that allows you to run what you brung with in the confines of size and safety. Any simple steel properly forged and heat treated can run with the best of these test blades. I have seen L-6 1095, 52100 . 5160 O-1 and O-7 win these competitions. A lot of skill is involved in learning to cut properly. Jimmy Fikes made knives that rock welled in the low fifties that out cut many in the low sixty ranges. Size blade shape and edge geometry all affect the ability of a blade to cut certain materials. Trying to get a blade that will cut a lot of rope to cut hard wood then toilet paper is a balancing act. Blades designed to cut one material will excel at that material and will fail cutting others I have heard of as many as 15 one inch ropes being cut at one time. Did not se it myself but it is very easy to do if the knife is designed just for this purpose and wielded by some one with great skill. You hear a lot of high performance noise from the sidelines. The noise that counts is the excitement of the crowd when the guys line up in a public forum to test their work in front of the public for all to see. Public competitions are far different than having a few buddies over to tell you how wonderful your knives are. The adrenalin is up and you could make a tactical error. One guy who regularly wins these competitions and has cut hundreds of one inch ropes missed cutting a single one inch rope with his Bowie that he had just cut with a small pocket knife. Want to know what makes a high performance blade join one of these groups or form one of your own and publicly test your work. I personally would love to see a good stainless blade win one of these competitions . I am sill waiting.
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  #10  
Old 04-13-2005, 04:35 PM
Riley White Riley White is offline
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Thak you Mr. Schwarzer, I learned a lot from your response. Where could I get a list of the future cutting events. I hope to get to watch one and learn more.
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  #11  
Old 04-19-2005, 08:27 PM
Jerry Hossom Jerry Hossom is offline
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Well, there are a few high alloy steps between tool steels and stainless. CPM-3V, CPM-M4, etc. I think you will see a stainless steel be competitive in cutting competitions soon. I believe you would have seen it happen some time ago but the only organized cutting competitions specifically excluded knives by most makers of stainless and other high alloy blades.

It's my firm belief that with proper heat treating, edge geometry and finish, conventional stainless steel blades (meaning 154CM, 440C, etc) are capable of impressive performance. S30V is capable of remarkable performance, better than most people know.

As for whether a flat ground blade outcuts a hollow ground blade, that debate can likely go on forever. You can produce the same edge on either grind and ideally nothing behind the edge touches what you're cutting so which you might choose for each application likely has more to do with mass distribution than anything else.

Opinions vary...


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  #12  
Old 06-10-2005, 11:03 PM
Todd Robbins Todd Robbins is offline
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Riley,

From the August 2005 issue of Blade magazine, on the knives the competitors would use in the ABS World Championship Cutting Competition:

Reggie Barker- A flat ground blade of 5/16" O-1 with distal taper and a convex edge
( I think I read that Reggie won. )
Adam Des Rosiers- Either O-1and L6 damascus,O-1 and 15N20 damascus, or plain O-1
with full distal taper. ( He gave no other description of the blade
grind. )
Dickie Robinson- A flat ground, clipped point blade of 1086M with distal taper from the
clip to the tip, and a convex edge.
Dan Farr_ A flat ground 5160 blade with a convex edge.
Daniel Winkler- A flat ground blade of 1086 with full distal taper and a convex edge.

I think this wide variety of steels goes to show that the best steel is one that the smith is most familiar and comfortable with. The grinds are all flat with a convex edge, and I think that speaks volumes. Some had dropped handles, while some did not.

I think the best knife you can make will be from the steel you're most familiar with with the grind your most familiar with, and testing cannot be stressed enough.

Todd
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Old 06-11-2005, 09:46 AM
DWinkler DWinkler is offline
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I watched my first cutting competition at the 2004 Blade Show and decided that I had to get into this. This is the most exciting thing I have seen in the custom knife business since I went full time back in 1988. All aspects will make your heart race and palms sweat and I have had both successes and failures. Fortunately my successes came at the right times and I was able to place in the top 5 so I could compete in this years national finals in Atlanta.

First, it has been an increadable learning year. I have gained more practicle knowledge on blade geometry, handle design, weight balance, heat treating and sharpening in the past year than in the previous 10. My own testing along with the open attitude of all the other competitors has worked well for me. As Steve said, you have to make a knife that will do a wide range of jobs not a specific single action.

What has worked for me is a full tang knife with a thick spine at the handle (3/8") with a fast taper to a thin point and full blade bevels. This makes a knife that is quick but has enough weight for heavy chops. Keep the knife close to the maximum size demensions. 10" blade, 15" overall and 2" wide. There have been some stabbing events so some type of point is a good idea. I like to remove some of the steel in the tang to throw the weight balance a little more forward. Use a handle material that feels good to you. Wood and rubber seem to be the most popular. Don't make the handle to round as it will want to turn in your hand and that will cost you seconds in the 2X4 chop. Think about the possible events and design your blade so it will not handicap you in any single type of cut.
Use the steel type you can get the best results with but don't discount trying some new stuff. Keep notes on what you try so if a new steel works well you know what you did. I have used 5160, 52-100 and 1086 modified. For me this past year the 52-100 and 1086 have worked best. You want good edge retention and you can't have any edge rolling or chipping or you will be disqualified. I test this with 2X4 chops and cutting down on aluminum cans through the tabs. I like a flat grind then a slight convex cutting edge but I am still testing other edge angles.

I can't really say where the line is between a persons performance and the knife because they both need to be at 100%. For sure the knife has to be right on, but your ability to use it needs to be there too to do well. The more I cut the better I get. Some of the best cutters I have competed against have natural ability and never practice. I would guess there are about 10 to 15 competitors I have seen that could win on their given day. But these same guys could just as eaisly come in last if he or his knife is a little off.

These cutting competitions are a great way to prove that your knives are not just hype but you really are putting them to the test in a public forum. It brings credibility to our work and has been really good for business. Customers know if you are out there trying to compete that you are learning and improving on what you make. You don't have to win to gain success, you just have to learn and improve and the customers know this. I hear talk from a lot of well known makers that say, "I can afford the time to do these cutting competitions", Well, I can't afford not to. Fact is that less than 10% of the knives I currently make ever really cut anything. But, every customer I have needs to know that if needed their knife will work as it is supposed to. And a public display of my knives really being put to the test is the best publicity I can get. Do I worry about having a knife fail, yes, but that is part of the learning curve and knife people know this. This is one place that even failure is an advantage because you can improve and come back for more. That shows confidence in your work.

I recomend that all knife makers give these cutting competitions a try. If you forge the ABS has a competition at each of their hammer-ins. If you don't forge the Knifemakers Guild has 2 at this years show and I know there will be stock removal blades there that are showing great potential. So join the ABS and/or the Knifemakers Guild. Watch in the future for another organization whos only focus will be cutting competitions for both makers and non makers. It is on the horizon.

Daniel Winkler
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Old 06-12-2005, 03:26 PM
DC KNIVES DC KNIVES is offline
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Dan, it is good to see you here and welcome.I have been a long time fan of your work.I agree that cutting competitions can only help marketing knives and the makers.While I don't make knives at your level yet , I do appreciate hearing your thoughts on using knives. I make mostly users and so I can get some good feedback on cutting ability, edge holding, etc. I have made some that I thought for sure would hang nicely on the wall for life get used and used hard, so you never know and the feedback sure helps.

Again welcome and don't be a stranger. I hope to meet you and Karen at the Guild Show.Take care my friend.Dave
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Old 06-21-2005, 10:06 AM
Reggie Barker Reggie Barker is offline
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This looks interesting and I agree Fikes and Fogg were testing blades to the extreme before a lot of people . I have won cutting comp's. with 1084, 5160, 01, and came in second once with steel that I thought was L6 but ended up I didn't know what it was. It came from a lagre saw blade but I soon learned that the newer blades have carbide teeth welded on them and it won't harden. I like a flat grind and I then roll a wire edge on the blade then finish it on a fine india stone, it leaves the edge coarser than a buffed edge but that is what works for me. Until I find something that I like better I will be using 01.
Reggie


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