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High-Performance Blades Sharing ideas for getting the most out of our steel.

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  #1  
Old 02-08-2005, 12:44 PM
peregrine peregrine is offline
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Question Does magnetic properties effect a blade edge

Just wondering. It seems that I recall some SCIENCE FICTION story relating that a soldier type from the future had a knife with it's blade charged, either by magnetism or some such ions. (Really sci-fi.) What I was wondering, is has anyone ever tried doing something like this on a blade and if so, what were the results.

Ok, experts. Let's hear it! 0]

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  #2  
Old 02-08-2005, 01:17 PM
Sam Wereb Sam Wereb is offline
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Interesting. I've been pacing around for a half-hour wondering about this. Hard to imagine how that could be done or what use could be made of it, but there are some cool ideas in speculative fiction.

I know Mr. Hossom thinks about knife edges on the order of somewhere between all the time and constantly. I hope he logs on.

This would be great topic material for the Neo-Tribal people in the Outpost Forum, too.
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  #3  
Old 02-08-2005, 01:39 PM
fitzo fitzo is offline
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I don't know about magnetism, but I remember in the 70's when they sold little pyramids to put a razor in to keep it sharper longer.....

Last edited by fitzo; 02-08-2005 at 03:02 PM.
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  #4  
Old 02-08-2005, 02:34 PM
peregrine peregrine is offline
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More...

If memory serves, the Fiction writer said the blade had a positive ion charge tuned outward on the blade's edge which like magnetics, would attempt to repell the molecular structures it came into contact with, like a magnet does on metal on its reverse poll. The author called it a vibro-blade. Anyway, makes you think.
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  #5  
Old 02-09-2005, 09:35 AM
Jerry Hossom Jerry Hossom is offline
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Well...

There was recently a discussion of this on Swordforums. An amazing number of bladesmiths acutally do make a point of quenching their blades in a North/South orientation during heat treating. You can in fact transform some autenite to martensite with strong magnetic fields, BUT global magnetic fields aren't anywhere near that magnitude.

All of my blades are magnetized, simply because I use a magnet to hold them during some grinding operations. Mostly, it's a pain in the butt, since they grab steel shavings and dust all the time and if I weren't so cheap I'd buy a unit to demagnitize them.

Bottom line, I don't believe in magic.

Hey Sam, nice to see you again, bud.


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  #6  
Old 02-09-2005, 05:55 PM
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Gary Mulkey Gary Mulkey is offline
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It's been a long time since science classes but if I remember right, a magnetized piece of iron(steel) has all of the molecules aimed in the same direction with positive end one way & negative the other. If this is true then if the tip of the blade is either pos or neg & the tang the opposite it should add strength to the blade. If the cutting edge is pos/neg & the spine the opposite then it should weaken the blade. Some of you scientifically minded people please chime in on this on as it has me curious.

Gary
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  #7  
Old 02-09-2005, 06:39 PM
Quenchcrack Quenchcrack is offline
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Magnetism

First, metals have no molecules. Atoms are arranged in crystals like cubes, hexagons, etc. Magnetism in metals exists within magnetic domains in the crystal lattice. The domains are somewhat like metal grains and can be randomly oriented or generally aligned, in which case it is magnetic. The property of magnetism is one of the 4 basic forces of the universe (gravity, magnetism, the atomic weak force, and the atomic strong force) and is a function of direction of spin of the electrons orbiting the nucleus of the atom. Modern Physics is still trying to develop a Unified Field Theory that mathematically relates all 4 forces. I cannot imagine how magnetizing a blade would have any real effect on it's performance since the magnetic field would be rather small and have no effect on anything that was not also ferromagnetic. Organics are not ferromagnetic. 0] Nanu Nanu!


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Old 02-09-2005, 06:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by peregrine
If memory serves, the Fiction writer said the blade had a positive ion charge tuned outward on the blade's edge which like magnetics, would attempt to repell the molecular structures it came into contact with, like a magnet does on metal on its reverse poll. The author called it a vibro-blade. Anyway, makes you think.
Sounds like the author had recently read about - but misunderstood - the phenomenon of diamagnetism. One can use diamagnetism to levitate small frogs, but it is of no utility in cutting something.


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Old 02-09-2005, 08:08 PM
fitzo fitzo is offline
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See, if you'd rub a little snake oil on this conversation you too could become true believers:

http://www.totalshavingsolution.nu/razormate.asp

http://www.americanartifacts.com/smma/advert/az364.htm

http://www.yet2.com/app/list/techpak...0&page=tpprint

Put on yer hip boots and enjoy the show. Lots more hits where that search came from: "magnetic razor" on Google!

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  #10  
Old 02-09-2005, 08:09 PM
Jerry Hossom Jerry Hossom is offline
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Unless of course you levitate that frog in about 8 pieces....


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  #11  
Old 02-10-2005, 09:36 AM
peregrine peregrine is offline
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Question Quenchcrack - Metal has no molecules?

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Originally Posted by Quenchcrack
First, metals have no molecules. Atoms are arranged in crystals like cubes, hexagons, etc. Magnetism in metals exists within magnetic domains in the crystal lattice. The domains are somewhat like metal grains and can be randomly oriented or generally aligned, in which case it is magnetic. The property of magnetism is one of the 4 basic forces of the universe (gravity, magnetism, the atomic weak force, and the atomic strong force) and is a function of direction of spin of the electrons orbiting the nucleus of the atom. Modern Physics is still trying to develop a Unified Field Theory that mathematically relates all 4 forces. I cannot imagine how magnetizing a blade would have any real effect on it's performance since the magnetic field would be rather small and have no effect on anything that was not also ferromagnetic. Organics are not ferromagnetic. 0] Nanu Nanu!
I don't want to sound dumb here, but does metal really have no molecules? Therefore, no molecular structure? Man, do I need a science review!

I did notice in a scientific journel recently, that some good magnetic metal (can't remember the name) that had a rockwell hardness of 55. I wonder what it would do in the mix?

* ANYWAY, my original point was NOT that the sci-fi blade had a magnetic charge but an ionic charge of some type (sci-fi) which acted like the reverse pole of magnetism does by repelling objects away from the point -> Therefore, it was supposed to be the ultimate knife.
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  #12  
Old 02-10-2005, 10:50 AM
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mete mete is offline
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The three basic types of bonding are ionic [NaCl or common salt ], covalent [or molecular] found in polymers etc, and metallic .So metals do not have molecules nor do they have molecular bonding....There are different types of magnetism but our discussion here is of ferromagnetism. The three metals that have it are nickel, cobalt and iron. We measure magnetic field strength and if we don't want our blades magnetized we degauss them
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  #13  
Old 02-10-2005, 12:15 PM
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TexasJack TexasJack is offline
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My wife was babysitting some young kids. They were watching TV and some movie was coming on. The kids wanted to watch, but my wife suggested that it might scare them. The 4-year-old turned to her and said, "Don't you know the difference between real and make-believe?"

Smart kid.

The nice thing about sci-fi is that you can make up anything you want. (In fact, it really only works as sci-fi if you ignore reality.)

The only reason this thread has attracted attention is because some knifemakers still align the blade to magnetic north when they quench. That has gone on for many, many years and few technical people are willing to comment on the real effects of magnetism and steel properties for fear of being anti-tradition.

There was a thread awhile back about degaussing a knife blade, but I don't recall anyone responding with a description of how to do it.


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  #14  
Old 02-10-2005, 12:37 PM
fitzo fitzo is offline
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On the other hand, though, those futuristic devices of older sci-fi resonate ever stronger with tools of today.

The YAG laser is frequently used as a surgical scalpel.

Ultrasound is used to both cut and weld and there's a real "vibro-knife" available:

http://www.ultrasonic-eng.co.uk/default.htm

EDM takes "electric knife" to a new plane.

Plasma cutters are getting smaller and smaller and sorta resemble that "ionic edge".
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  #15  
Old 02-10-2005, 01:03 PM
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Alan L Alan L is offline
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Forget magnetism, I've been using my mental faculties to induce harmonic vibration amongst the atomic lattices of my blades, thus providing friction heat to forge by! Resonant frequencies rule!
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