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High-Performance Blades Sharing ideas for getting the most out of our steel.

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  #1  
Old 10-01-2004, 10:32 PM
Ssj2 Ssj2 is offline
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Aus10 vs 440c

How do these steels compare to each other in edge retention, toungness, corrosion resitance and wear resitance?
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  #2  
Old 10-05-2004, 02:03 AM
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MixonKnives MixonKnives is offline
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First, let me start off by saying that I'm still new to knife making, so don't think I'm trying to be a know it all or anything. But I've been reading your other posts, and it seems to me like you've done very little research on these subjects.

Now please don't take me wrong. I'm not trying to be a jerk or anything, I was as ignorant as you are not to long ago. But the best way to fix that, is to do some studying. Not posting all those questions on how a steel compares to another steel.

You can learn pretty easily the basics on looking at a chart of a steels composition and knowing how it will perform. For instance, 1095, with a carbon content 0f .95 makes a very good edge holding carbon steel. While 1050 with .5 carbon, makes a less quality blade in regards to edge retention. But will be much tougher and survive longer as a larger blade, sword, bowie, even an ax.

I think the best way for you to learn about hows steels perform is get some of the books that have been written by professional knife makers. Wayne Goodard and Dr. Jim Hrisaolus have both written many good books. Both explaining the effects of different alloys in steel.

Now in the case of that stainless sword you wanna make, if you have a particlular project in mind (ie: best stainless for a sword) ask directly. It took me reading for about 10-15 minutes of posts and replies to get down to where you informed the forum on what you were trying to do. If your first question was "Whats the best stainless for a sword?" you would have gotten an answer much quicker, then I'd expect your next question to be "Why?"

After being told or taught something, the best next question is always "Why?"

If some one is teaching you something. Anything! Weather its knife making, bow hunter, cooking, whatever. After the lesson, if YOU can't answer "why" you were taught to do something a certain way, then ask the teacher. If he can't tell you "why" ask another teacher. Thats good advice and it will serve you throughout your life.

Good luck with everything, always stay learning, and most important have fun
Michael.

PS: just a side note, but if you have to be asking all these questions, I don't think you're ready for s30v. If you want a good sword, make it out of 1050 or 5160. I promise you'll be happy with it.
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  #3  
Old 10-05-2004, 02:27 AM
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MixonKnives MixonKnives is offline
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Well, I have to appologize. After that long old speech, I totally forgot to answer your original question. After all, it is 2 am.

As far as how they compare to each other, I couldn't tell you because I've never seen a hart on Aus10. But if you have a chart on it, compare them in the following manner.

440c has around 18.0 % chromium. This makes it one of the most stainless of all blade steels. Compare that to Aus 10s chromium, keeping in mind that 13% is minimum for stainless. Then look at the carbon content.

440c has a 1.2% carbon content. This is higher than alot of steels used for blades. Including ats-34, aus-6 and aus-8. This is going to aid the edge retention quite a bit.

Again, i don't have a chart on aus-10, but my chart on 6 and 8 show .25% vandium. So I'll assume thats a general trait of the Aus family. This would make it tougher than the 440c with no vandium.

Just curious, is this post still pertaining to the question about a stainless for a sword? If so than you might concider Aus-6. Its .65% carbon, and .25% vandium will make as tough of a blade as you could get for a stainless sword, and the 3.5-4% less chromium than 440c will only help you that much more. Now thats just my opinion, there are probably other steels suitable for stainless swords, probably even better steels suitable for stainless swords. I personally wouldn't make stainless sword for use, show only.

Oh yeah, another thing to keep in mind, and especially on the Aus 10, is when your selecting a steel, keep in mind how readily available it is. I can't remember running into anyone that sells aus-10. To be honest your post is the first i've heard of it. But if you have a sorce for it I say give it a try, see how you like it.

Good luck, I need sleep. So good night.
Michael
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  #4  
Old 10-05-2004, 03:20 PM
Ssj2 Ssj2 is offline
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Don't assume just because I'm new to this forum that I'm new to makeing knives. It is true I don't know about every steel out there because I have only worked with a few ie 420, 440c and ats34. Now as for you I can say you don't know a whole lot either for instance you said 440c has 1.2 carbon but in reality its any where from .95 to 1.2 usually falling around 1.1 and you also said compair the amount cromium in diferent steel to tell which ones more stainless well guess what you can't do that its not that simple. What makes a steel stainless is not the amount cromium in it but the amount of free cromium ie the amount not taken up by carbon and turned into carbides.

Now as far as me wanting to make a sword out of stainless this post has nothing to do with that. I simply want to know which stainless is better because I might switch from 440c to aus10 but seeing as you nothing about aus10 I guess you wont be able to help me.






PS. You can make a functional sword from stainless if you use s30v Jerry has done it and it makes sense because it's as tough as a2.

Last edited by Ssj2; 10-05-2004 at 10:18 PM.
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  #5  
Old 10-05-2004, 03:53 PM
fitzo fitzo is offline
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Perhaps the best way to answer your question would be for you to make two similar pieces out of the two steels, test them under the conditions you desire them for, then make an informed decision. Since the characteristics of each steel vary depending on the heat treat of that given piece of steel and it's particular batch chemistry, generalizations can only be generalizations, which we both know.

There is obviously no replacement for direct experience, especially if you are doing your own heat treating. Unless the same person at the same company at the same time did the heat treat and the testing without bias, one cannot be certain of commmercial comparison charts regardless.

BTW, welcome to TKN. It is a pretty friendly and civil place even in disagreement, and the home of a huge amount of information and help. Though certainly not required, it is always nice to have a name to call someone, and perhaps even a bit of an introduction. Your choice, of course. Also, if you decide to test these steels side by side, we would love to know your results and opinions.

Last edited by fitzo; 10-05-2004 at 04:39 PM.
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  #6  
Old 10-06-2004, 04:03 AM
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mete mete is offline
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The higher chromium content of 440 would make it more corrosion resistant.The AUS-10 has nickel which adds toughness and tha small amount of vanadium is a grain refiner also making it tougher. As far as a practical difference in normal use I think the two would be comparable. Remember that there are two problems with blade steels - picking the steel , and heat treating it. Heat treating differently changes all the properties , hardness ,toughness, corrosion resistance etc. In any case there are many choices for excellent stainless knife steels.
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  #7  
Old 10-06-2004, 10:44 AM
Jerry Hossom Jerry Hossom is offline
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Whoa!!

Numbers make me crazy. It is VERY hard to understand how a steel will perform in a knife without making a knife of it and seeing what you have. You can't even look at things like Chromium content and say this knife will more corrosion resistant than that knife because it has more chrome. You can't say this knife blade will be harder than that knife blade because it has more carbon, or anything will be more anything because it has more anything. If is were that easy, there wouldn't be hundreds of different steel companies making thousands of different steels.

True, corrosion resistance is largely determined by the amount of free Chromium, BUT if the steel is very grainy, even in the presence of free Chromium, so you can only finish it to a modest degree, the blade will tend to rust regardless of the free Chromium. If I finish CPM-3V (8% Chromium) with a very fine surface and passivate it, it will be more corrosion resistant than a poorly finished blade in ATS-34 (14% Chromium) plate steel.

S60V has over 2% carbon but only hardens to about Rc56. I recently tested a steel with just 0.35% carbon and it was hardened to Rc61!

THE WILD CARD:

In any of these discussions of steel, the wild card is always what do you intend to do and how do you intend to do it? I guess that's two wild cards. You can take almost any steel and make a decent blade out of it for almost any purpose if you accommodate the steel's weaknesses and make best use of its strengths.

The more I learn the less I understand...


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  #8  
Old 10-06-2004, 02:59 PM
Ssj2 Ssj2 is offline
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I would totaly agree, it's tough to find out just how well steel performs just by reading the data sheets on them. Thats why I prefer to go to these forums and ask people who have had experience with diferent steels and know how they work. In the end nothing is better then hard evidence from people who who have actully used the diferent steels in knives and tested them out.
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  #9  
Old 10-08-2004, 02:35 PM
Ssj2 Ssj2 is offline
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Does any one know if it's high carbon content that makes a steel brittle or the high hardness a steel achieves due to high carbon content that makes it brittle?
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  #10  
Old 10-08-2004, 08:02 PM
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mete mete is offline
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That question can only be properly answered with a very long discussion of highly technical material about heat treating .In general the higher the carbon and higher the hardness the more brittle the steel.
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  #11  
Old 12-07-2005, 03:21 PM
Naphtali Naphtali is offline
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Doesn't anybody use Taber Wear testing anymore? This test takes guess work from abrasion resistance aka edge holding aka wear resistance.

Re corrosion resistance: I am in the fourth year of my Carbon V aka O-1 (with Vanadium) test. I lubricate the hinge pin every six months. That's it. The steel discolored slightly. That's it. Being fanatically opposed to corrosion and non-stainless cutlery steels, I have no rational explanation.

Re ductility: Refer to corrosion resistance test. When you test/use a knife without serious regard to its longevity for a long time, you can ferret flaws.
***
Alternately, you could rely on Carpenter Technology's Data Book on Stainless Steels where classes of stainless steel are identified and indexed -- by corrosion resistance, and by strength -- and tested in a large variety of corrosive environments. Book also furnishes "the numbers game" so fondly argued by knife people.


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