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The Newbies Arena Are you new to knife making? Here is all the help you will need.

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  #1  
Old 06-16-2013, 05:44 PM
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Fulmaduro Fulmaduro is offline
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5160 Hamons Can Happen

Recently forged out 4 blades of 5160 with a fellow ABS bladesmith who is teaching me a few tricks. He said I could make a visible hamon on a 5160 blade. We used simple furnace cement from Lowes. Applied cement to blade, DID NOT let cement dry, inserted in propane forge, brought to critical temp, tested with magnet, then quenched straight down into a large metal cylinder of mineral oil. Removed cement after blade cooled, which was 100% intact. Tempered blades. Blade sanded to 400 then polished with Simichrome.

I hope these links pop up. If not just clip and paste onto your browser. Pics show hamon, blades after tempering, with ghost hamon visible on tempered blade bottom of pic. Other pic shows blade with cement attached after quenching.

http://www.freepicturehosting.com/is...g=DSC03937.JPG
http://www.freepicturehosting.com/is...g=DSC03897.JPG
http://www.freepicturehosting.com/is...g=DSC03900.JPG
http://www.freepicturehosting.com/is...g=DSC03894.JPG

My knifemaker teacher is Lyle Schow of Harrisonville, MO. His website is http://www.ldknives.com/

Let me know what you think. Thanks.

Tony Z


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Old 06-16-2013, 06:21 PM
Doug Lester Doug Lester is online now
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Yes, I thought that you would be having to put it on pretty thick. If you can find some 9260, I understand that Admiral Steel Still has it, it will come up even stronger.

Doug


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Old 06-16-2013, 11:33 PM
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Eli Jensen Eli Jensen is offline
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I see some purple on your tempered blades. Purple is quite a bit hotter than what we want for tempering.

However, total tempering time, oil on the blades, etc can all give false colors. I sometimes have a tinge of purple on mine and I KNOW it doesnt go above what I want. Just thought I'd give you the heads up though
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Old 06-17-2013, 06:39 AM
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I'm wondering, Ive done something similar with 5160 before, but did not feel it was a true hammon per say. After removing some of the steel (thickness reduction) the deliniation in the hammon line disappeared.
My understanding of a true hammon would dictate that the hammon deliniation would manifest completely through the blade steel. That's what I get with 1095 and W2. Correct me if I'm wrong on this.
Have you done any extra testing to see if it goes all the way through?


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Old 06-17-2013, 09:43 AM
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Fulmaduro Fulmaduro is offline
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This all started when I read in, more than a few places (internet- so it has to be true), that 5160 would not produce a hamon. I asked my mentor Lyle Schow why, and he said that was not true, but that it was a challenge and didn't quite produce the same visual results as on 1084, 1095, W2. He showed me a 5160 Bowie with a hamon he made and said we will do one on one of my skinners I had forged out. The Bowie hamon looked awesome so I was all in.

We fired up the forge. He then showed me how to put the furnace cement on, very thick (1/2" +) and covered a large portion of the blade. He told me the key was the thickness AND to leave it wet when we quench it. He said the resulting hamon will be a bit smaller than the area covered by the cement because a lot of heat will still gravitate up the blade under the cement, resulting in a smaller hamon. But if you had let the cement dry it would not produce any visible hamon on 5160 unlike those other steels.

What you see in the pics was after 400 grit sanding with simichrome. He told me I could go 600 or even 800 but I am satisfied with the results. I have only used 5160 since I started working with Lyle 7 months ago. I have a bunch of it and Lyle had me make my first knife with it. I like the toughness of it and it will be great for a competition blade and any ABS test knives. So I plan on working with it until I get it down.

Doug - you were right, it was layered on thick. I have never heard of 9260. Sounds interesting. I still learn something new every day. Thanks for the info.

Eli - I tempered this batch of 4 blades the same as I did the previous 3 batches, and those previous were all straw color, these with a bit of purple. Lyle said they should be fine and initials testing on hardwood dowels and deer antler show no chips or deformation. I used a thermometer the first 3 batches and this last time set the oven to the exact same setting. Next time I will do the thermometer. I can't believe my oven changed on me. But I think the first batches I started the oven cold with the blades in them, last batch put them in when oven reached temp. Or vice versa. Can't recall exactly, should have written it down.

CRex - I am not the best grinder and many times I end up grinding too much off to correct mistakes. Getting better, but this blade in particular was ground down more than I wanted and I have actually hand sanded and etched 3 times, the first 2 times the etching brought out scratches that I thought were gone! So, the hamon still came out the last time, and I believe that it goes all the way through. I should get a scrap piece of 5160 and test it to see if it does go all the way through. But the surface area of the hamon is definitely much smaller than the cement coating we put on it.

Thanks for the input. Any recommendations welcome.

Tony Z


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  #6  
Old 06-17-2013, 11:33 AM
Doug Lester Doug Lester is online now
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9260 is an interesting steel. As the number indicates it's a silicon, manganese alloy with the silicon near 2%. It is shallower hardening than 5160 with a weird IT diagram. I starts to form ferrite at about 0.8 seconds but doesn't start forming pearlite and bainite until about 2 seconds. Like 5160, it is a hypoeutectic steel with good toughness at the expense of edge holding. The problem is finding a supplier that will sell it in small amounts. Right now I think that means Admiral Steel. It might be productive to contact Aldo Bruno at the New Jersey Steel Baron and ask if he can find some, however.

Doug


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Old 06-18-2013, 04:29 AM
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Procedure sounds pretty standard for 5160. Thanks for sharing.
Make the test piece large enough to cut a cross section out. Clean and sand to 600 grit or better then etch. Should be able to tell a little more. Should also be evident in bend/break testing.


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