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  #1  
Old 10-26-2006, 11:44 AM
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J. D. Jamar J. D. Jamar is offline
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Using a waterjet in your knifemaking process (with video)

Hello everyone.

While visiting with Gene, of Center Cross Metal Works / Center Cross Instructional Videos, about the use of our waterjet machines in the production process of knife making (at our plant, Waco Composites Ltd., in Waco, Tx) He had mention that I join the community and post a message here.

Basically, at Waco Composites we manufacture bullet resistent fiberglass panels for a variety of applications (www.armorcore.com) We use our two waterjets to cut all of our panels, however I'm in charge of finding other uses for our waterjets to make them more profitable. So that is why I am now looking to get in the business of cutting knife "blanks" an other accessories for those wishing to make knives.

We have two abrasive Waterjets, providing up to 6? x 12? work envelope with nesting capability. We can ?net? or ?near net? parts to +/- .010. We can accept Internet File Transfers; for that matter we accept any 2-D image and convert into a workable MasterCam/ CAD file. Our Waterjets can handle materials up to 6? in depth, including steel, and that weigh 300lbs per square foot. Though with materials such as steel, we loose some of our tolerance past a couple of inches in depth. We can also handle small intricate work as well.

Since we are using state of the art equipment, we can cut almost any material and complex contours; we specialize in cutting composites, fiberglass, and Kevlar. We also have a great deal of experience with aluminum, stainless steel, mild steel, Teflon, marble, granite, glass, etc. The unique quality and advantage of machining parts on an abrasive Waterjet is that there is no heat transfer during the cutting process, so no ?heat-hardening? of your material; as well as no secondary machining necessary in most instances.

Let me know if you have any questions, about the waterjet process or how I can be of service.
Thank you,
J. D. Jamar




Last edited by J. D. Jamar; 11-02-2006 at 10:38 AM. Reason: Added video
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  #2  
Old 11-15-2006, 12:11 AM
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DiamondG Knives DiamondG Knives is offline
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JD
Just found this post. Thank you for stepping in! I have been looking into doing a production run with one of my fighters, and your service just might be the trick. I will be contaqcting you in the future.

God Bless
Mike


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Old 11-15-2006, 07:05 AM
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Bob Warner Bob Warner is offline
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I think there are a couple things to look at when it comes to your service.

First, many people who want to perform every step in their knife production so quite a few here will not be interested. A few, not all.

Second, knifemakers in general from what I have seen and experience myself are not wealthy people. Your run sizes and prices will have a major impact on your ability to get knifemakers to be your customers. You may have excellent prices but your runs would have to be fairly large to cover setup and cutter time, so even with good prices the cost may be to high for some. It may be a good idea to give a basic example of a small sample run. Pick out a 8-10 inch hunter you see here and use that design for an example of your pricing structure. That will give people an idea of the potential cost. Then shipping has to be added in along with steel price.

Can/will you buy the steel? For example, your in Waco and a guy from Michigan wants something cut, does he need to send you the steel or can you source it and bill him as part of the job?

Would you charge by the size of the raw material or by the number of blade blanks you get from it? Small knives would spend more time on the cutting table than large knives and due to small size nesting would increase the blade count afew percent. Resulting is quite a few blades at a per blade price.

Would you charge for designwork? If you were sent a picture how much would the design work cost and would it be a one time charge? Some companies charge a lot for design work. Some charge you even if you send in designs ready for the machine. Would a second run be charged design work?

How large would a run have to be to avoid setup costs? Small runs would normally be charged additional due to machine setup, how would you handle this?

How accurate is your cutting? When there is a hole in a tang that will have a pin through it, it has to be right on or the pin will not fit or will be sloppy. VERY important to knifemakers is the fit and finish of their work.

Basically it has to save the knifemaker enough time to make it worth the expense. It also has to be profitable enough for you to do. I think it woulkd be a very delicate balance to make it work.

Bob


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Old 11-15-2006, 11:06 AM
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Excelent questions Bob , I am eager to see the response from these people.


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Old 11-15-2006, 01:32 PM
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No pics of the actual material on your site. I was curious what it looks like as compared to cured woven carbon fiber or kevlar.

Bullet-proof handle slabs....perfect for that tactical blade!


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Old 11-15-2006, 02:49 PM
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Im with Dwane, very good questions Bob, thanks for thinking of them. Those hit the nail on the head for me.

If they can outsource the steel to save shipment is a biggie for me.

Also, if I have a pattern that I have been getting cut from say, 1/4" 1095, could I send them specialized steel for special orders of the same pattern ? Such as a 1/4" bar of damascus to have say 3 blades cut from?

God bless
Mike


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Old 11-15-2006, 03:13 PM
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Same here. I might be interested in getting several blanks cut from a sheet of 440C stainless if the price is right.


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Old 11-15-2006, 08:46 PM
John T Wylie Jr John T Wylie Jr is offline
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not knives but a few years ago a friend and myself did a batch of titanium bottle openers. I made a proto mock up and we took the sheet of Ti ( I think it was 12" x 24" x.100 ) and the proto , it cost us $100 in setup/cad fees and $120 in Waterjet fees. So we were into it for $220 plus the Ti , i cant remember how many we ended up with somewheres around 80 of them. Nice thing about it was very little waste of material. We didnt have holes for keyring cut out , just spotted on center and we drilled them ourselves.

Had we needed to ship the Ti to the waterjet place , it would not have been worth the $$.

For a large run of the same blade I can see it being benficial.... I just cant find myself making more than 4 of any same design and not getting bored.


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Old 11-16-2006, 11:08 AM
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J. D. Jamar J. D. Jamar is offline
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Bob,

Thank you very much for your excellent questions and points.

1. Personally, I do not have any experience making knives, though I would like to change that; I do however have experience with making wooden sea kayaks, and so do understand the passion of making something with traditional tools from start to finish. But as you had mentioned there just might be a few who are interested, and just by the response after your post, I'm encouraged.

2. Good suggestion about a small sample run, I plan to perhaps use some of VEGAS HENCHMEN's numbers from his comments, on this post, to try give folks and idea of our pricing structure. (I will try to post that next week.)

3. I can purchase the material and add it to the cost of the job, there would be a %15 mark up on material, but I can get some decent prices on most material. Though I am also very happy to have you just ship the material as well.

(Though it should be noted that some materials can only be bought in certain dimensions, or sometimes metal companies charge more to cut specialty sizes of material when you order it. So if it is a unique material that I'm almost certain that I cannot use or sell otherwise, then you may have to buy the extra material not used in the job, otherwise I will strive to only charge you for the material that is used. This will be worked out on a job by job basis.)

4. I charge by the length of machine time on our waterjets. I take the linear distance of the part that needs to be cut, divide that by the cut-rate, then multiply that by $1.67 a minute. It should be noted that different materials have different cut-rates, and also depending on the finish of the cut or the tolerances that you may require can also affect the cut-rate. Though considering that this would mostly be knife blanks, we can cut them really fast. Also, if it is possible we can commonline cut multiple parts so as to save on the amount of machine time.

5. Setup/CAD fees are a part of the deal. I charge $45 for those fees. That $45 is the design fee, rather it is a drawing that you fax or if it is already in .dfx format. (if it is a drawing or dimesions that you e-mail, we will draw it then send it back for your approval first.)

I wave those fees if the job takes more than an hour of machine time. Also, that is a one time fee per design. So if you send me a design, I'll put it into AutoCad then into MasterCAM to run on our machines, then we save the file. So if six months down the road, you need that same design cut again, it's on file and you are not charged the setup/CAD fees again.

6. Though we are a Texas base company, here in Waco, TX we sale our product, AMORECORE, both domestically and internationally, so we ship everywhere and we will work hard to get fair shipping prices for your product.

7. Accuracy: we can easily hold +/- .010 with materials that are up to about 1/2" in thickness, we can hold +/- .020 with mateials that are up to 1". We can just do piercings within the material as well, I had a job where all the customer wanted was thousands of 1/32" diameter holes pierce in the material.

Thanks again for the questions, I hope that this has been helpful.
Also, Don Halter had mentioned not seeing our fiberglass product on the company website, so I'll put some youtube vids of it in action. Which you can also find on the website, though they do take some time to find them on the website.
Jason Jamar
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Old 11-16-2006, 11:12 AM
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Fiberglass Shelter

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  #11  
Old 11-16-2006, 11:27 AM
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Fiberglass doors shot with 2 x 4's, simulating tornado conditions

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Old 11-16-2006, 11:54 AM
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Jason , I for one am eagerly awaiting your post on pricing.

Thanks
Dwane


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Old 11-16-2006, 01:17 PM
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Don, we should have invited this guy out to the hammer-in!


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Old 11-16-2006, 03:00 PM
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Mr. Jamar,,
My question is this: what is the time difference of cutting through a single piece of 5/32"
ATS-34 and cutting through two pieces stacked one on the other?
Can this be done and would it save me money after your computer has nested the pattern.

Also i have noticed that blanks cut from sheets of 440-C have a smoke like grain from the silacit when polished that bar stock does not have,,,my question is: can we get blanks cut from flat bar stock if so requested?
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Old 11-22-2006, 11:00 AM
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J. D. Jamar J. D. Jamar is offline
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Responce to Skipknives ? about stacking material

Generally speaking, stacking another sheet of material upon another would be like doubling the thickness of the material. Though sometimes with stacking, if there is any kind of gap or space between the material, then it may have a frosting affect on the material in between the space.

But to answer your question the 5/32" ATS34 should cut about 10.5" per minute and then it stacked would be about half that.

We could also cut from a flat bar stock if you needed.

Last edited by J. D. Jamar; 11-22-2006 at 11:03 AM.
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