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High-Performance Blades Sharing ideas for getting the most out of our steel.

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  #1  
Old 11-17-2006, 04:22 PM
EdStreet EdStreet is offline
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kiln/ovens

what's the deal with the heat treatment ovens for knives? Have been looking at several ovens lately and it seems that the ones for the knife side of things are on the gouging side of the price spectrum.

I did find some plans for a DIY heat treat oven and I was thinking I could also use it with the crucible cups to melt metals if I made it big enough. budget casting has all the stuff except the brick and sheet metal and even with that my initial figures are quite low cost wise.

This one ceramic shop here local showed me their kiln, it will do 2,300F and big enough to put a suitcase inside of it. so what's the deal, am I missing something here?

Ed


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Gold is for the mistress - silver for the maid
Copper for the craftsman cunning in his trade.
"Good!" said the Baron, sitting in his hall
But steel - cold steel is master of them all.
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  #2  
Old 11-17-2006, 10:02 PM
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B.Finnigan B.Finnigan is offline
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A friend of mine is a jeweler and she does alot of non-ferrous casting with her oven. They are spendy, just like forges are if you don't make your own. There have been several knifemakers that have built thier own and saved a big chunk of money.

Some of the retail cost is insurance and UL testing. My neighbor used to work for UL and he told me you can get anything UL listed if you have enough money. That cost gets thrown right on the customers.
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Old 11-17-2006, 11:05 PM
Doug Lester Doug Lester is offline
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Question Re kilns/ovens

I'm not sure where you're heading here. Are you wanting a kiln or oven that can both heat treat you knives in and melt metal? Something as simple as carbon steel and most of the simpler alloys can be heat treated in the kitchen oven (better half allowing, of course) or even an old toaster oven. Go to Amazon.com and search under "metal casting" or "metal work"; they have several books on it, even on a charcoal powered melting furnace. Basically, the melting furnace is a verticle forge that has a lid on the top. You will need a tongs that will reach down in the furnace to take the crusible out. The moderator of this board made one. Use the tongs to take the crusible out and then transfer the crusible to other tongs that will grip it horizontally.
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Old 11-17-2006, 11:37 PM
EdStreet EdStreet is offline
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actually yes, one unit to do both functions. I do have practical castingby tim mccreight.

Ed


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Gold is for the mistress - silver for the maid
Copper for the craftsman cunning in his trade.
"Good!" said the Baron, sitting in his hall
But steel - cold steel is master of them all.
Rudyard Kipling (1865 - 1936)
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  #5  
Old 11-18-2006, 12:34 AM
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B.Finnigan B.Finnigan is offline
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Given that non-ferrous metals have some drastic temp differences for melt points a electric furnace will give you far more control. Using a propane forge requires close monitoring of the metals especially if you don't have a pyrometer.

I did over heat some copper I was melting and it exploded when I poured it into the mould. My neighbor and I came close to getting some nasty burns, we were lucky that the amount was small enough that it did not fly far.

I am realizing more and more the advantages of using a heat treat oven just for accurate and efficient annealing and tempering. Right now I am grinding a blade from tungsten cobalt steel and I will have to take it to a friend's shop to temper it. It requires 1000 deg F which is beyond the range of a kitchen oven.

As Doug mentioned, heat treat ovens are not needed for most applications but they sure can make things faster and more eficient. If I was to do more casting in the future I would probably build one or try to find a used unit.
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  #6  
Old 11-18-2006, 10:02 AM
Doug Lester Doug Lester is offline
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Talking Re kilns/ovens

Ok, Ed, now that I understand your question and your situation, yes, as stated above, you can do both with a kiln. I have a top loading kiln by Vulcan that I got on Ebay I beleave for about $150. I can't give you the name of the dealer because they are no longer listed on Ebay. The body is made out of 4 1/2x2 1/2x9" insulating brick. The top, bottom, and middle sections are in separate units with the heating elements and pyrometer housed in the middle section. I ramped this little puppy all the way up to the full heat setting and burried the pyrometer needle at 2200 degrees F. That's about a high as those bricks are rated for, if I remember correctly. This model is only 4 1/2" deep, but with the modular construction, I can get some 4 1/2x2 1/2x9" insulating brick either locally or from Ellis Custom Knife Works and extend the depth 4 1/2" at a time by constructing more rings of bricks. This is not a "push the button and walk away" type unit. I'm still going to have to be there to make sure that the heat is at the correct setting. You can get around this, however, by buying one with a ramping capability, but you're talking a bigger investment.

One word of caution, these things are not ment to hold temperatures around temporing range. You might be able to get by temporing in one of these units by putting your blades in and watching until the unit gets up to the required temp and then cutting the heat off. The bricks hold the temperature for ever so it may well work for cycling the steel three or four times like that. I don't have a better half (worse half or any other half) and the cat just shakes his head and stalks off up stairs when I start heat treating in the kitchen oven. Where I wanted to use the kiln for heat treating is for anealing the steel and for bringing blades that are too long for my forge up to temp for hardening. I hope I have succceded in making the perfictly clear absolutely obtuse .

Doug Lester

Last edited by Doug Lester; 11-18-2006 at 10:05 AM.
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  #7  
Old 11-18-2006, 10:34 AM
EdStreet EdStreet is offline
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Ah but that's just it. heat treat ovens to my understanding uses kanthal elements and they are ment to hold the temp, alone with a good controller should be able to hold the temp. should be able to find a good programmable controller for those elements.

Ed


__________________
Gold is for the mistress - silver for the maid
Copper for the craftsman cunning in his trade.
"Good!" said the Baron, sitting in his hall
But steel - cold steel is master of them all.
Rudyard Kipling (1865 - 1936)
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  #8  
Old 11-18-2006, 07:15 PM
Doug Lester Doug Lester is offline
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Holding temp

I think you missed my point, or I missed yours. What I was trying to say is that the kilns are not designed to run around the 400-500 degree point. You usually start burning a wax model out of the mold at a little higher temp. I'm not saying that you might not find a kiln that won't hold those temps with the adjustment knob set right next to the off position, but you might find on that runs to hot at the lowest setting.

Doug Lester
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  #9  
Old 11-19-2006, 12:52 PM
EdStreet EdStreet is offline
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yea that's the main issue, holding temps at any level indefinately. That problem can be solved with a programable controller. with a blend of on/off patterns you can hold any realistic temp indefinately. The controllers I am looking at has a 0.25 sensitivity and a slew of other things, should be workable and probably alot better than most all of the controllers on the commercial ovens and furnaces.

Ed


__________________
Gold is for the mistress - silver for the maid
Copper for the craftsman cunning in his trade.
"Good!" said the Baron, sitting in his hall
But steel - cold steel is master of them all.
Rudyard Kipling (1865 - 1936)
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