80CrV2....?

[Crex]

I agree with Dana on this Chris, I was invited early on but did not like what I saw in the first series and declined. That and I'm dumb enough in person, I don't need to be on TV to prove it.

I like the face to face dealings as well. James is a true gentleman and a wealth of knowledge. Andy and his crew are the same way, most of them are excellent knifemakers. Andy's got that business sense that really makes things work (something I don't have, I'm no businessman). If you go to their website or the Georgia Guild website check out the work of Dirk Lootz, one of his partners. This South African transplant makes knives that are unbelievable plus he's just a really kool dude. Joey's no slouch either, excellent kitchen knives. None of them forge, but they have expanded the offerings to include quite a bit of smithing supplies. I like giving them a rash about all the potential knifeblades they sweep up and throw out every day. We're all very good friends and I count it a great blessing to be part of this knifemakers' brotherhood.

[Dana Acker]

Carl, I went out to the GA Guild site. Their gallery was quite impressive. Some of the greatest musicians in rock history came from Georgia, and it appears its knifemakers follow suit. There were knives I viewed that would probably sell for more than my house. If y'all act just a wee bit proud, you've certainly earned the right. Hats off to y'all!

[Crex]

The Guild has been one of the few organizations that has blessed me from the start and never stopped. 14 of us makers got together after a Blade Show and decided we needed something here in GA to help promote the craft by teaching and sharing knowledge. We now have over 100 active members that include some of the best talent to be found anywhere. Best part is the wealth of generosity in sharing, no secrets. If you want to know how something is done someone in the Guild will step up and show you with hands on instruction. Big plus is the networking through out the state (and surrounding states).
True blessing to be associated with so many fine folks. Just makes you want to do better.

Mark Williams and I started up the Trackrock Hammer-ins about the same time us GA boys chartered the Guild. So a lot of people think they are one and the same. Although they are not, over the years more and more Guild members have become participants and they have sort of unofficially melded in ways. With the help and participation of many of the Guild and others I managed to keep the Trackrock event open to the public and free. Although I charge for serious one on one instruction, I didn't feel it right to charge for the TR event. It has pretty much morphed into an "introduction to smithing" for young people. Not a bad thing. I'd be remiss to leave out that Trackrock Campground has made it all possible with their generous allowance to let us use their facility for free - of course we do fill the campground for the weekend. All works for everyone.

[Dana Acker]

I hope to visit one of them sometime. Please keep us all posted when you plan events.

[jimmontg]

C .72% Cr .43% Mn .50% Mo. .07% have no idea what Moly does at that concentration and Nickel .87%

As you can see it isn't much different than 5160, little more carbon and less chromium and manganese, but does have nickel and a tiny bit of molybdenum. I got this from Alpha Knife Supply. They're always nice enough to put comparable steels next to each other.

[Dana Acker]

Hey, thanks for the info, Jimmontg. You reckon the nickel is just for extra toughness? Most meteorites are a mix of iron and nickel. Whatever you believe about the creation of the universe, the odds are pretty high against the notion that iron and nickel just happened to get together by accident.

Especially since the Iron Age proper, is thought to have begun in the 900's BC, in and around the time of King David, Biblically dating things. Historians now believe that the Iron Age began universally, and began from people picking it up off the ground, instead of mining it. They posit that there was a universal meteor shower that peppered the earth with chunks of iron and nickel. And...here we are today. We're in both the space age and the Information Age, and we're still making stuff from metal found in or on the earth...and loving it! Hammer on!

[Crex]

Knew I'd seen that "recipe" before somewhere, just couldn't remember where. Thanks Jim.

Lot of folks thinking it's the new best, but I'm not getting the edge retention I'd been led to expect. Makes a good tough blade just not staying sharp. I'm thinking more "chopper" steel than carving/slicing steel right now.
Going to make some adjustments on the heat treat end, but not expecting it to change much if at all.

[jimmontg]

My brother pounds old Chevy leaf springs into hard and tough knives, but I'm thinking this doesn't need so much nickel. Nickel would tend to give a softer edge. 5160 itself has no nickel so that may be the issue Carl.

[Dana Acker]

That's good to know. My brother in law is a surveyor in rural NC. Once he brought me a set of buggy springs he found. It was not in horrible shape, especially being in the woods since the early 1900's. They were 1" to maybe 1 1/4" in width. There was still enough good steel left in them to make serviceable knives.

[Tai Google]

Originally Posted by Dana Acker

Especially since the Iron Age proper, is thought to have begun in the 900's BC, in and around the time of King David, Biblically dating things. Historians now believe that the Iron Age began universally, and began from people picking it up off the ground, instead of mining it. They posit that there was a universal meteor shower that peppered the earth with chunks of iron and nickel. And...here we are today. We're in both the space age and the Information Age, and we're still making stuff from metal found in or on the earth...and loving it! Hammer on!

Very interesting,... I'm curious who those historians are and if you have a reference to an article online? Is there any new historical evidence of earlier, true Iron Age technology?

It's true the first iron used by humans was picked up off the earth's surface in the form of iron meteorites. However, artifacts that were found date back to the Neolithic era and were formed into simple tools through stock removal, "Neolithic technology". It was fracturing them down and wearing them down on harder abrasive rocks. Raw meteorites are brittle and don't lend themselves to the forging process in pure form. There was no metallurgy or fire involved.

Smelting, alloying and the true "Iron Age" didn't come until much later.

[Dana Acker]

The article I read was in a scientific journal back in the '90's, but I don't remember anymore where I read it or who wrote it. The idea behind the article was that there was evidence of iron implements being produced around the globe as far back as 900 BC. I'm sure that the author wasn't trying to say that was the only definitive history, and all else was wrong. It's just that many in the sciences were rethinking history based on gathered evidence or reinterpretation of already gathered evidence.

The problem with putting too much faith in science is that there are very few laws. Gravity. Thermodynamics, and several others, but not many laws. There are numerous theories, and since theories are based on hypotheses, and there are potentially an infinite number of them, that debates can exist on multiple fronts. However had the author been mistaken or worse, lying about said evidence, I cannot imagine the rest of the scientific community not rushing to set the record straight, and I do not remember that having taken place.

But since we're now in the Information Age, I'm sure the information has to be out there somewhere. The chart you provided seems to deal more with Britain and Europe than the rest of the planet, although the chart claims the Iron Age hit in Britain in 800 BC, which isn't far off the mark of the 900 BC date that the author of the article to which I referred claimed.

As none of us were there, and no time machines exist, we have to rely on those who are immersed in the studies of history, archaeology, metallurgy, geology, and a host of other disciplines, and that gets us back to myriad theories and potentially infinite numbers of hypotheses, all with attendant arguments and those who would argue to the death that they're right.

I remember an old post on one of the old NT forums where we were discussing the merits of quenching with the blade pointing true north as a means of preventing bends. One night some science guys chimed in; physicists, if my memory serves me well. They argued the scientific impossibilities of what we were claiming to actually work. I'm no scientist, and only took the required scientific courses necessary to graduate college, so I couldn't then, nor can I now scientifically defend quenching true north. The physicists, I recall became quite irate with us, insulting even, because we were essentially witch doctors arguing with Neurosurgeons, or more like makers of paper airplanes arguing with real rocket scientists. And it really frosted their cookies that we would dare to defy their scientific abilities. Again, lots of theories, even more hypotheses. Our hypothesis wasn't as good as theirs' in their estimation. And the beat goes on....

[Dana Acker]

And while you're not a fan of it, the Hebrew Bible claims the manipulation of iron millennia before the Iron Age proper. They didn't discuss how said iron was acquired; they just make the claim. The Philistines (likely descendants of the Phoenicians) are reputed to have had an iron industry going on on the west coast of what many would call the "Holy Land" in an around 1400 BC or 1300 BC depending on what date believes is correct for when the Hebrews migrated out of Egypt and moved into Canaan, the west coast of which was Philistine territory. You can choose to believe or not believe the veracity of the Hebrew texts, but they were talking about the use of iron tools and weapons way back when, even during their own Bronze Age period.

[TexasJack]

Pharaoh Tutankhamun had a dagger that was made from a meteorite. He was born around 1340 BC.
RkRJvqa.jpg

[Crex]

Originally Posted by jimmontg

My brother pounds old Chevy leaf springs into hard and tough knives, but I'm thinking this doesn't need so much nickel. Nickel would tend to give a softer edge. 5160 itself has no nickel so that may be the issue Carl.

Quite possibly it. Just not getting what the big deal is that makes this steel "better" in some folks minds. Especially since 5160 is so readily available and less expensive.

I'd like to find out what the old Ford Ranger springs were. Friend of mine had me make him two hog stickers (he's big into hog hunting) from a spring he salvaged from his brother's wrecked Ranger. If it was in the 5160 category it had a "kicker" alloy of some kind. Those two knives were both tough and stayed screaming sharp for a whole season of stabbing and dressing hogs. Forged more like 52100 - bit stiff under the hammer, more so than 5160. I HT'd them like they were 5160 and they came out very nice.

[Tai Google]

My point is just that picking up iron rocks and abrading them into simple tools, doesn't constitute an "Iron Age".

The Tut dagger is very interesting. It doesn't seem to show the typical Widmanstätten pattern of meteorites. Without it there really isn't any visual way to know for sure it's from meteoritic material.

If it is from meteoritic material, then it must have been either cast or repeatedly folded and forge welded to refine it. This would represent more advanced technology from earlier on and I think there are a few other rare ancient and mysterious examples. However, it was not widespread and very uncommon. At any rate, there seems to have been some knowledge of iron and how to work it prior to the "Iron Age".