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  #16  
Old 07-14-2003, 02:57 PM
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Osprey Guy Osprey Guy is offline
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Uh oh.......



hmmmmm-

Did he sign the front of the canvas "Pablo Picasso"?...

or did he identify his work with "Customized by P. Picasso" in a small corner on the back of the canvas?



Dennis Greenbaum

Yeah Baby!
  #17  
Old 07-14-2003, 03:12 PM
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Amy-


I understand where you were going with that but with all due respect, if you've seen any of my kitknives, especially in the past few months, or for that matter some of the other guys' gems posted here in the past couple of weeks, I don't think you'd be using that "paint by the numbers" analogy. By the time I'm finished the only thing left for you to recognize is the liners and the blade, and even they are now typically, considerably modified.

The knife I'm currently working on already has over 60 hours of my sweat and inspiration poured into it...and I've still got a ways to go.

Paint by numbers?...I don't think so!


Dennis Greenbaum

Yeah Baby!
  #18  
Old 07-14-2003, 03:15 PM
darrylburke darrylburke is offline
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Here is another question to consider..

at what point does the "kit" parts or shape become so small that it's not considered a kit (or will it always be?)

Eg. if I take the blade, and modify the shape signifigantly, same with the handles and bolster.. is it still a kit?


Eg. the only part pretty must untouched is the pins, lock liner and the piviot point on the blade.. is it still a kit?


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  #19  
Old 07-14-2003, 03:32 PM
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That's odd...what happenned to Amy's last post?

Dennis Greenbaum

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  #20  
Old 07-14-2003, 03:49 PM
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BTW-

In case you guys didn't pick up on Alex mentioning about how much this has been discussed...You have no idea!!!!

This has been a very, very emotional, hotly debated subject in the CKD since the very beginning. I can't recall where it was, maybe over in General Discussions, but there's a thread that still stands as one of the all-time marathon threads in the CKD...at the heart of which was the subject of Kitknives.

Should there be full disclosure? I think that answer is a no-brainer. As to any other discussion about kitknives, especially one's like you just posed Daryl, the answers can and will be debated "'til the cow's come home!" Simply put, there are no definitive right or wrongs about the kits.

Do you know how many knives have been made over the years using someone else's blade?...Are those kit knives? This sort of question can go on and on...At the heart of it all is disclosure. The knifemaker, whether putting out a 100%, every square inch, sole authorship knife...or someone like myself who's spent many hours embellishing a kit...we owe it to the public, to ourselves, and to the knifemaking community to be forthcoming about our knives' specs and origins.

Dennis Greenbaum

Yeah Baby!
  #21  
Old 07-14-2003, 10:02 PM
Kelly Carlson Kelly Carlson is offline
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Interesting points - many of which have been covered at great depth in this forum, and I won't repeat them here.
From my own experiences I agree completely with Alex and Darrel that, in the absence of the opportunity to serve a long apprenticeship with a skilled maker of folders, these kits are the best way to learn how to make your own quality folders from raw materials.
I made about 50 kits last year, selling them for a range from
$ 100 to $ 500, depending upon the degree of embellishment and improving skills.
From the kits, I learned how to design and make folders of my own design, and funded a a fairly complete workshop from the proceeds of kit sales, including: mini-mill, mini-lathe, Bader BIII variable grinder, anodizer, heat treating oven, endless files, vises, and lots of steel, mosaic damascus, pearl and ivory.
This year, I'll sell at least an equal number of knives of my own design and construction, ranging in price from $ 500 to $ 1,500, and have several months of backorders ahead of me.
As I'm really just starting, and feel pretty good about results and market response to date, I do want to credit the kits with being both an excellent product and an excellent learning medium.
Additionally, "Thank You" to the many participants in the CKD Forums for sharing their tips and techniques so generously!


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  #22  
Old 07-14-2003, 11:40 PM
Amy Amy is offline
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Within 15 seconds of posting my reply, I deleted it. I choose not to participate in this debate.

Thank you.
  #23  
Old 07-14-2003, 11:45 PM
Amy Amy is offline
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Before anyone has a chance to lay blame on me for starting this debate, please remember that I asked a minor question about whether or not customers are educated about the construction process of the knives in question.

Yes and no answers would have sufficed.
  #24  
Old 07-15-2003, 08:25 AM
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Amy,

No problems, you asked a reasonable question from anyone?s standpoint.

The answer is yes, I haven't heard of anyone who participates in CKD not educating the customer on the kits.

You mentioned as there gets to be more kits it will get harder to tell them from the made from scratch blades. If you have any questions about a blade you received you are free to post it here, between most of the people here they know most of the kits, KnifeKits or others. People have done this in the past.

There maybe heated debates about pricing, signature, and whether to call them custom knives or others, but everyone here does believe in the honesty and integrity.

Jim


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  #25  
Old 07-15-2003, 08:51 AM
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Darrel Ralph Darrel Ralph is offline
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Amy,
If you read the thread topic it has nothing to do with your question. Your question has been answered anyway for curiousy sake. Please read up. If you want more of an answer do a search on this forum. You will find a link.
How about we stay on topic!

Please answer my question.
What is YOUR description of handmade?
  #26  
Old 07-15-2003, 04:41 PM
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SharpByCoop SharpByCoop is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by Amy
Before anyone has a chance to lay blame on me for starting this debate, please remember that I asked a minor question about whether or not customers are educated about the construction process of the knives in question.

Yes and no answers would have sufficed.
OK, I'll bite....

First off this topic started as something entirely different. Amy you came in with a query, which, by your own wording is a 'debate'.

This forum and the rest of the CKD members, refrain from debates--we have discussions.

And, no, a yes or no answer would NOT have sufficed. How presumptous to think a simple 'yes' would have been taken with credibility.

As you have seen by the outpouring of responses here, there are a LOT of folks who have an emotional tie to being accused--even slightly--by the 'kit's vs. handmade' discussion. And rightly so. We HAVE discussed this ad nauseum, and to 99% of the CKD members who pay atterntion, we, more than any other forum or internet site pay close attention to the specifics of this aspect.

Now, I can imagine, since you alluded to a bad experience you had as a manager for The Cutting Edge, that there may very well have been an incident that got you into hot water without knowing a darn thing. No small wonder you are defensive, if not offended by these kits. They burned you. I'd be pretty #### peeved at the whole darn business myself.

But that doesn't give you the right to come in with an attitude and commentary that isn't open to discussion. Reasonable questions can be asked without having to delete them immediately. Thankfully, I never saw the offending post. Nor do I support deleting posts after they have been out there and witnessed by the public. (Darrel deleted his followup post, too. Just as well. They both did no good.)

Posting on a public forum requires forethought and an abstinence of emotional wording, that you (like myself or anyone else who does it), may regret later. At least that's the way it goes around these parts.

Sorry you came in on the wrong foot. Tell us about your lousy experience and maybe offer your ideas on what YOU'D like as far as education goes, and we can take it from there. Without a debate. Your opinion counts.

Sincerely,

Coop


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  #27  
Old 07-15-2003, 06:25 PM
Kelly Carlson Kelly Carlson is offline
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Far removed from the original question, which I hope has been answered satisfactorily.
My choice, when I was making kits, was to leave them completely unmarked, and to display them at shows on top of a poster noting that they were based upon Darrell Ralph designed kits and to also display an uncompleted kit adjacent to the completed knives.
Dennis Greenbaum chose to mark the inside of the backspacers with the notation "Customized by ---", which may be a better method of identification.
They are excellent products and do not need anything less than full disclosure of their origin and components to sell well - in fact, I found the source to be a positive selling point.
More importantly to some of the makers, is the opportunity to utilize the kit building experience to expedite the learning process and add new makers to this field who are able to design and construct their own exclusive and sole authorship designs.
I do think the kits are a great way for future makers and enthusiasts to get started in an excellent hobby which also has business potential.
Misrepresentation is unfortunate, and unnecessary, but, in the mid to longer term, that will really be a problem for the guilty parties, not those who excercise good business practices and strong ethics.


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  #28  
Old 07-15-2003, 11:35 PM
Mail4Tim Mail4Tim is offline
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Okay, at the risk of offending a number of knife makers out there I will add my thoughts to this ever growing and obviously emotional post.

First of all let me say that I am one of the newer guys to the knife making world. I have assembled a number of knives from kits, primarily from the kits that were designed by Darrel. These kits are in my opinion the best available. I have given away a number of these knives and happily explain the process where by the knife came into being. One thing I insist on is giving credit where it is deserved and Darrel and the Knife Kits family deserve all the credit they can get. As I said their kits are the best available.

The real issue here is what do you call a knife that starts out in kit form? Handmade? Custom? Customized By? Made By? I don?t think we will ever be able to apply a label that will satisfy everyone. When it comes right down to it, who cares? When I give someone a knife I tell them it is a custom XXXX, where XXXX is the model number of the kit used. I then go on to explain the kit process in detail because I happen to like the idea that the original design was done by Darrel Ralph and want others to know this as well. The reason I believe it should be described as custom is because custom is in the artistic vision. I decided what scales material to use. What hardware to use. How to shape it etc. This is what I consider artistic vision. If other knife makers want to take issue with the word custom because some of the materials used by me to make this knife started out in a pre-packaged kit, then I would say to them, be careful! If you follow this line of reasoning to it?s immutable end then they can not use the word custom if any component of their knife was made by someone else. This would include pins, screws, washers, bearings, and possibly even the steel! Doesn?t the fact that someone else designed and manufactured some part of their knife prevent them from calling it custom? What about the handle material? Did they grow the tree to harvest the wood they used? I think you can understand my point. No one is 100% responsible for making all aspects of the components used in making a knife. This fact does not prevent the use of the word custom to describe the knife. If someone else is responsible for a significant contribution to the knife they should be given credit. We already do this when we use damascus. I believe everyone gives credit to the damascus manufacturer when they use their product. Why should using a kit be any different?

Custom is in the vision, not the manufacturing.

Tim
  #29  
Old 07-16-2003, 12:49 AM
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Osprey Guy Osprey Guy is offline
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Tim-

As you can see from the number of views and the responses so far, this is and always will be an emotional subject. We've kicked the whole name thing around 'til it's bleeding..have yet to settle on anything to satisfy all. Out of respect to those knifemakers who do more in the way of sole authorship on their blades (and out of respect for tradition...you don't ever sign a blade you didn't make yourself), I have found that my use of the word "Customzed" seems to sit well with most.

There are a couple of primary issues here...Yeh, coming up with a name is one...but clearly disclosure is another (and we're all in agreement that at least in the CKD, we are indeed up front about our knives' origins)...

But if I may come back to the original topic, "how much to get for the kits", maybe the real issue is "are they worth it?"

Assuming that full disclosure is a given, I challenge anyone to compare the action on these kits, the fit and finish, and some of the fantastic embellishments we've seen in the past year or so...and tell me these aren't worth every penny we're asking for them!

When some (threatened) knifemaker starts whining about the prices I'm getting for my knives I'll tell him to his face about the hours I put in (as much as 100 per folder) and ask how much time he put into his. If he's concerned that the action on my kitknives is better than his I'll suggest to him that he learn to make a better knife! And finally I'll suggest that maybe he needs to take some lessons in sales and marketing. (MOST knifemakers are terrified to charge what they're knives are really worth...consequently the whole market is ridiculously depressed when it comes to pricing vs true value).

As Kelly has stated, these kits are a fantastic method for education. Heck, take a look at Kelly!...Just last year he was the most prolific of all the kitmakers here. Now he's making only sole authorship folders...some of the sweetest knives around...and his prices are not only up there (avg. of $800+) but he's selling the heck out of them...(Can you say BACKORDER?) BTW- Much like myself, Kelly's background is very much in sales and marketing.

I am little by little, learning to replace the components from my kits. I hope to fully "graduate" in the coming months to what we call "sole authorship". I expect that I'll still dabble with the kits from time to time (especially when Darrel and Alex keep introducing stuff like the Typhoon! ). If it weren't for these kits I'd still be wondering which end was up on a screwdriver.

They have exposed me to a world I never would have known...never had a clue I'd be interested least of all good, at all this. They have enabled me to learn that I have knifemaking (and embellishing) deep in my blood...and for that I will be forever grateful.

Darrel and Alex have often stated that they have a dream that Knifekits will launch a whole new breed of high-end knifemakers...Seems to me that dream is already beginning to be realized...and the prices we're getting is proof of that!!!


Dennis Greenbaum

Yeah Baby!
  #30  
Old 07-16-2003, 06:43 AM
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I'm fresh to the scene here, and though I cant express a true opinion on the current topic, I can share my experience and perhaps shock, in making my first kit knife.

First off I'm a 20 year old college student with no prior knowledge to materials nor knifemaking. Recently I purchased a Typhoon balisong kit and finished it about a week ago (see "my G10 typhoon")

When I had put up pictures of it, I had gotten tons of positive responses, something I did not expect at all! In my hand was a beautiful looking knife and when people started saying how much they were selling their finished folders for, I was shocked!

And the other thing is that I dont have a workshop, I dont have expensive tools. I finished the g10 inserts on the typhoon handles with sandpaper, a dremel, and a file. That's it.

My friends also agreed that it is a very professional looking knife, and I can personally say that it's nicer than any of the production balisongs I own.

So after you create your knife how do you go about selling them?
 

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