First Try At Detail Filing

[rockhound]

Hi all,
I have not assembled or built a knife yet but am looking forward to it. I have purchased a simple fixed-blade knife blank to start with but don't have all the parts yet.
I have been doing much research and learning about the process through online sources over the past two weeks.
This site has been an excellent resource so far and I very much appreciate it!
Anyway... while watching golf today I decided to try practicing basic file work and spent the better part of the day learning it.
This is a scrap piece of 1/8" thick steel that I practiced on. I think it's leaf-spring steel.
Basic vine pattern... I used needle files and one larger round file for this work.
FUN!!!!! I know it's not perfect by any stretch but it felt good to get one under my belt and I learned a lot. I may try some file work on my first knife.

[Ray Rogers]

Actually, that's not too shabby. It's a lot easier to do when you start with fully annealed steel though, which means easier on your fingers and your files last longer ...

[rockhound]

Ray,
Thank you, that is encouraging!
I'm confident enough to try it on a skinner blank I bought when my handle material arrives. Actually... I may as well start on it tonight if my files still have any life in them. The steel on the skinner is 440c, 56-58 RC hardness. Hopefully that will be easier to work with, and like you said... maybe not as hard on the files. I enjoy doing this type of work. Not too far off from fly tying and rod building which I've enjoyed for many years.
I apologize for the size of those images. They were 2K wide... I'll go down to 1.5K next time before submitting my post.
Thanks!

[Ray Rogers]

The 440C won't be that much easier since it too is already heat treated. You'll enjoy the file work more when you do it on a blade before the blade gets hardened ...

[Crex]

If you have a dremel or flexshaft (most likely you do), you can go in with various grit cratex wheels and clean up the tight spots. Just shape the wheel on a coarse stone to fit the spot and work carefully with the wheel rotating away from the bulk of the metal (you'll know why pretty quick if you don't).
If you are really confident with a dremel, you can do the bulk of the work with small diamond bits. They don't know diddly about hardened steel. Nicely done by the way.

[rockhound]

Thanks Carl. I do indeed have a Flex and many different diamond bits. I wanted to do the file work without Dremel assistance though... kind of a self-test.
Ray, you are totally right about the 440c being hard. It felt twice as hard as the leaf-spring metal and my files hated it. I will not be doing file work on hardened steel again. I've already been scouring the stock removal threads and will be learning those methods rather than purchasing blanks. Only down-side I see is that I'll have to send my metals away for HT, but worthwhile.

[Crex]

Doing filework pre-heattreat on high carbon steels......I don't recommend it. You are introducing more potential for crack inducing stress points in the steel. I've always done mine post HT because of that alone. I finish my blades completely before I start to mess with any bling work. Nothing can make your stomach turn faster than finishing a blade rubout and spotting a hairline start of a crack you thought was just a scratch. Especially critical on smaller blades like bird/trout and neck knives.
Yeah, stainless and hardened steels are tougher on the files, that's why I got busy learning to be proficient with the dremel. You can differentially HT most high carb, forgable steels so that the spine is a bit softer after HT and workable with files (medium to large blades). Don't work much with stainless anymore, real pain to forge well and I quit stock removal many years ago.

[rockhound]

Originally Posted by Crex

Yeah, stainless and hardened steels are tougher on the files, that's why I got busy learning to be proficient with the dremel. You can differentially HT most high carb, forgable steels so that the spine is a bit softer after HT and workable with files (medium to large blades). Don't work much with stainless anymore, real pain to forge well and I quit stock removal many years ago.

Well.... I'm good with the Dremel and definitely wouldn't mind doing the bulk of my future detail work with it.
I'm still trying to wrap my mind around the the terms and definitions of "heat treating", "annealing", and "hardening" however. I had assumed that these were all one-in-the-same but now a little confused.
In one response Ray had said "It's a lot easier to do when you start with fully annealed steel though, which means easier on your fingers and your files last longer"
In Ray's next response he said ""You'll enjoy the file work more when you do it on a blade before the blade gets hardened".
In your last response you stated "Doing filework pre-heattreat on high carbon steels......I don't recommend it"
So... Ray and Carl, unless I'm reading this thread incorrectly, you may be contradicting each other on this advice. Either that or my understanding is askew. This is what I understand (or misunderstand as the case may be):
1. There is a possibly window of opportunity prior-to or somewhere in the middle of the "HT, annealing, or hardening" process when the material is easier to file upon... drawing from Ray's comments.
or
2. There is no good time to file other than "post heat treat" due to potential cracking or splitting. I should do detail work on a finished blade (post HT, annealing, hardening). It's hard on the files but I can just use the Dremel.... drawing from Carl's comments.
A little confused
Forgive my ignorance here, I know it's not rocket surgery... I don't learn well unless I ask a lot of questions.

[Ray Rogers]

Ya, we do very little rocket surgery here. Do rockets need surgery? No matter. Yes, Carl and I are contradicting each other....sort of.

Steel starts out soft (annealed) and, obviously, it will be easier to file while in this state than after it has been hardened. Carl points out that the filing can possibly help induce stress cracks so he does his after the HT is finished. Hardening a piece of steel causes incredible strain on the metal which can cause the metal to crack if there is any sharp internal corners (like a notch or a square corner) cut into the metal. Carl has a fair point there but most file work is pretty much rounded and smooth and so I've never had a bad experience by doing the filework first. Also, most of my file work has been done on stainless blades using air hardening steels and that might not be as stressful as the process used on oil hardening carbon steels. So, personally I wouldn't be afraid of filing before HT but as Carl says that could bite you once in a while ...

[rockhound]

ahhhhhhh..... there is more than one way to skin a cat!

Thank you for the explanation Ray. I am understanding this much better now. Since I cannot do my own forging (yet), I will still pursue learning the stock removal methods and experiment again with file-work on those types of builds.
Q: ... since Carl pointed out the potential issues of cracking during HT....
If I were to craft a blade from purchased steel and perform file work (example 440C, not sure if purchased stock is pre-hardened or?), then send it away to a reputable vendor for HT... do the reputable vendors frown on this, or issue a disclaimer, how does typically this work?
(please correct my terminology when I get it wrong, I'm green at this)

[Ray Rogers]

Purchased steel is (almost) always annealed (soft). Commercial heat treaters don't care if you do file work on the blade, grind the bevels or don't grind, drill holes or don't drill. They would complain if you sharpened the blade before you send it to them - and you should be hung up by your heels if you did that - but mostly don't care what shape the blade is in when you send it to them. They do the process, if it fails that's just the way it is. The reason for that attitude is basically what I said earlier - many things can cause a blade to fail in HT but most things usually don't.

As for stock removal, don't sneeze your nose at it too quickly (I heard that somewhere). Even after you start forging you'll spend as much time grinding that blade as you spent whacking it with a hammer. Blades don't come off the anvil all smooth and clean and shiny ....

[rockhound]

Thanks Ray!
I'm very interested in stock removal at this stage and I appreciate the wisdom. Once I get this first knife completed from a blank (I'm almost done now), I'm going to order some steel and have a go at it. Which steel would you recommend for a greenhorn like me? I would like to do pre-HT file-work and not afraid of a challenge. I'd like to create nice useable blade... so don't want to start with low quality steel. I know they each have their pro & cons and there seems to be only a handful of different types that are commonly offered.
Again, thank you for your help.

[Ray Rogers]

There are many great blade steels available but for a first knife the choices we like to present are either 1084 (or 1080 or 1070) for those who plan to do the HT themselves (usually with a torch or forge) or 440C or 154CM for those who will send the blade out for HT. 1080 is a simple carbon steel, 440C and 154CM are air hardening stainless steels. Texas Knifemakers will heat treat a stainless blade for about $5 and they are happy to process a single blade. Most commercial outfits like batches of blades.

So, we suggest these steels because they are the easiest and cheapest buy and to HT and they are easy to work with while still being capable of producing a top quality blade ...

[rockhound]

Very helpful information, I have written it down. Coincidentally, I've already been to the Texas Knifemakers site and browsed their steel and other supplies.... possibly from a link here in another thread or search criteria I've entered here.
I'm glad they will take the small orders and come recommended. Looking forward to doing business with them when I attempt a stock removal build.

[Crex]

"As for stock removal, don't sneeze your nose at it too quickly (I heard that somewhere). Even after you start forging you'll spend as much time grinding that blade as you spent whacking it with a hammer. Blades don't come off the anvil all smooth and clean and shiny .... "

"The forge big, grind small" mind set is not the mantra of all accomplished bladesmiths, Ray. Quality hammer control combined with careful thermal control will allow one to forge quite close to finish. Not trying to be contrary here, because you are correct about this with the greater majority of smiths. Those that "Whack" steel probably have a lot of grinding to do. I did stock removal for more than 20 years until I just got tired of it and the dust. I find forging more liberating and artistic, ergo I forge. Stainless just doesn't excite me and I'm not a "shiney" person, so......
Absolutely nothing wrong with stock removal blades, I just choose not to grind. We both know that the heart and soul of a good knife is geometry and proper thermal cycling.
I forge "tight" because I can and only use the grinder for touch-up profiling and final sharpening. It spends most of it's time shaping guards and handles. I know this opens a separate can of worms and don't wish to repeat that scenario for the umpteenth time so I'll say no more on this.

The potential for stress inducement on preheatreated blades statement comes from more than a casual one time experience. It happens mostly with the smaller blades as mentioned, but it does happen. May or may not manifest with the stainless steels, this I don't know and defer to your experience. It does happen with higher carbon range steels such as 1095, W1, W2 and O1. A simple flex test and close inspection upon blade completion will bear this out. As you have always stated, testing the results of your skills is the best way to find out and I agree completely.

Rockhound
Ray and I approach things from different directions and experiences. Ray gives excellent advice here and shares his knowledge freely as most of us try to. Sometimes our subtle biases sneak out and I appologize if I have caused you any confusion. Find what works for you and have fun with it.