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The Sheath/Holster Makers Forum This is the place to discuss all forms of sheath and holster making.

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  #1  
Old 05-05-2003, 11:01 AM
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Drac Drac is offline
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Types of leather

Hi guys,

I know that different types of leather have been covered for tooling; I can only find a couple of the threads. What are the differances between bellies, tooling bellies, shoulders, premium shoulders, Nature-tand, oak leaf, skirting, saddling, kip, and sides?

I'm getting ready to order some 6-7 oz leather for Chucks Mexican loop tutorial and I'm getting confused. Does cost reflect quality? I'll be stamping but no carving.

Thanks for your time,
Jim
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  #2  
Old 05-05-2003, 12:35 PM
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Chuck Burrows Chuck Burrows is offline
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Jim-
Price reflects quality in two ways - where it was tanned (generally either USA or South American/Mexican - there are European tanned hides as well and they are normally premium quality) and the grade. Of the two most commonly tanned hides, USA tanned (Wicket & Craig, Herman Oak, Howes, Wes-Tan, etc.)is normally the best tanning, but you can get good SA/Mex. Grade is based on how "clean" the face of the hide is i.e how free of range marks and brands as well as how tight the back or flesh side is.(just as important as a good face.) No hide is totally free of range marks and frankly as long as the hide is not badly scarred I like them as they add "character". Brands can be cut around, but they do take up space, but hides with brands are normally less expensive.



1) IMO don't even bother with bellies. On the chart above cuts F/H and G/I are the bellies.

2) Shoulders/premium shoulders: Same animal basically. Probably the most used Veg-tan leather for sheath/holster making - the most bang for the buck normally due to size and lack of belly leather along the edges. Difference between the two is quality based on grade as explained above. BTW Demers Leather 800-336-3772, carries some of the best double shoulders I know of. They split 12 oz hides down to thickness for a very tight/clean back. Referring to the chart above: Double shoulders (average 14-16 sq ft) = parts A, B, C, F, & G. Trimmed shoulders have parts A, F, & G trimmed off. A single shoulder is half of a double shoulder.

3) Nature-Tand, Oak Leaf, etc. - proprietary names for various lines of veg-tanned hides.

4) Saddling/Skirting: heavy weight (10+ ounces) veg-tan sides normally used for making saddles. It is finished by the tanneries with a bit more oil so that it retains it's flexibility. It is thicker than necessary for most knife sheath work, although for big Bowies or swords it can be the thing to use.

5) Kip is a hide from a large calf rather than a mature cow. Usually comes in lighter weights only and I have noticed when using it that the grain is usually not quite as tight as cow hide.

6) Sides: The most common cut/size of leather sold average 20-24 sq ft. A side is half of a full hide split longitudinally along the line between B/C, D/E. Trimmed sides have the belly sections cut off.

7) Back or Bends: The cleanest most even (and therefore most expensive) part of a hide consists of sections D & E. Hope this helps.

Carving or stamping requires the same quality hide.

If you can afford it get the best leather possible. For my own use I buy almost exclusively from Wickett & Craig and I usually buy "b" grade backs - virtually no belly leather. The double shoulders from Demers are excellent also and may be the best overall buy for sheath makers (Sandy swears by the 7/8 oz Vi-Tan shoulders from Siegel's, but I think he also said they are no longer carrying them but you might want to check).
If you are just starting out, don't have a lot of spare cash, and are unsure of what to get try I'd recommend the single shoulders in 6/7oz weight from Tandy/Leather Factory. They average about 6-8 sq ft and sell for $4.99 a sq ft. Best for blades under 6".


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The beautiful sheaths created for storing the knife elevate the knife one step higher. It celebrates the knife it houses.

Last edited by Chuck Burrows; 02-21-2005 at 03:08 PM.
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  #3  
Old 05-05-2003, 01:36 PM
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Wow ,

Thanks for one hell of an answer Chuck.

I was going across the Tandy Leather sight when I start getting crossed eyed from all the terms. This answer needs it's own sticky thread at the top as part of a FAQ for sheath making.

Thanks again for the time you put into an answer,
Jim
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Old 05-05-2003, 01:44 PM
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Chuck Burrows Chuck Burrows is offline
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Your welcome.

Why don't you drop one of the modertors a line about making it a sticky.


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The beautiful sheaths created for storing the knife elevate the knife one step higher. It celebrates the knife it houses.
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  #5  
Old 05-05-2003, 05:42 PM
whv whv is offline
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siegel lists vitan shoulders in both their catalog and online. natural is listed at $5.50 and colors at $5.75 per foot. good stuff in 5/6, 6/7 or 7/8 oz. their website orderform is in the crapper, though, so you need to call in orders.


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Old 05-05-2003, 07:15 PM
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Chuck, great post. You just saved a lot of people a lot of grief.
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  #7  
Old 05-05-2003, 07:22 PM
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Chuck Burrows Chuck Burrows is offline
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Hope it helps.

Wayne-
Yep my Siegel catalog shows them and so does the website, but I talked with Sandy a while back and he said they were not going to be carrying them anymore so....

If you want another source for really nice shoulders check with Demers. They even carry them in vat dyed black and yes it can be tooled and worked just like natural. I'm not sure about 7/8 oz but they do carry 8/9 oz (my favorite) and I'll bet if enough sheathmakers asked they'd carry other weights.


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The beautiful sheaths created for storing the knife elevate the knife one step higher. It celebrates the knife it houses.
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  #8  
Old 05-08-2003, 10:44 AM
Jerry Shorter Jerry Shorter is offline
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Chuck, Ya gotta watch the Leather Factory. I ordered a 14 sq.ft hide a while back . It was listed on the internet at 4.99 a sq ft. when I got the bill it was 6.50 a sq ft. I kept it because of the time factor in sending it back and ordering another hide. but I wasn't happy.
Jerry
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Old 05-08-2003, 10:50 AM
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Chuck Burrows Chuck Burrows is offline
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Jerry - I watch all my vendors! Soem are worse than others - got a hide a while back from one that was suppossed to 3/4 oz and it was more like 2/3 oz, I paid for 25sq ft and on different places on the hide it was marked 24 ft and the other 22 ft! Like you time was a factor and I made it work, but....

As always when buying Caveat Emptor. I have found at least with my local store in Albuquerque (200 miles away is local for me) to call and bitch when something isn't right. They have always made good.


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The beautiful sheaths created for storing the knife elevate the knife one step higher. It celebrates the knife it houses.
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Old 05-12-2003, 11:23 PM
Sandy Morrissey Sandy Morrissey is offline
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When anyone asks a question regarding leather and it is answered by Chuck---STOP ! YOU DO NOT HAVE TO GO FURTHER ! The man is a virtual fountain of information that he shares so freely and completely that no further info is required. When he writes, I read, because he has already done the research and it is flawless. I really do not know how he has acquired so much knowledge, he being such a youngster------ compared to this antiquity---


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Old 05-12-2003, 11:42 PM
Sandy Morrissey Sandy Morrissey is offline
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Vitan* double shoulders

Last Friday I questioned Siegels about the Vitan* shoulders. They told me that they no longer had any in stock BUT---they will get more but it will be several months hence. These are produced in Europe but I am not aware of what country is involved. I have found them to be rather consistent as far as quality is concerned. Barbed wire scars are not a problem. I have received local hides from time to time that was stripped from a cow that had a love affair with barbed wire fences. Not all of them were tannery run either as they were mis-graded. These I return to the supplier amidst some choice comments, tactfully, of course! Remember that old adage "The squeaky wheel gets the grease"? Well the replacement hide bears that out as it is usually pretty darn good.


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Old 05-13-2003, 10:52 AM
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Chuck Burrows Chuck Burrows is offline
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Thanks Sandy but as much as I wish I knew it all I don't so I'm always willing to learn and the day I stop learning is the day I hang up my needles so to speak.

If I remember correctly Vitan shoulders come/came from Italy. They use European stock so therefore range marks were at a minimum. As an alternative I recommend the shoulders from Demers. As I said they are very clean front and back. They sell a lot of this stock to a maker that builds police rigs and the leather has to be of top quality. Also somebody in the US was importing stock from Germany. It was written up in the Leathercrafter's and Saddlemakers journal a couple of years ago so I don't know if the stuff is even still available. The claim was that it was even better than Vitan, so it might be worth somebody's time to contact the magazine or look back and see if the stuff is till out there.

Currently Wickett & Craig is running a sale on their russet skirting in 8/10 oz in tow grades for $85.00-90.00 a side. That's a good price. They also sell their belt backs for around $6.00 a foot which are as clean as anything I've used. They normally come in 8/9 oz but they will split them to whatever you want at no extra charge.


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The beautiful sheaths created for storing the knife elevate the knife one step higher. It celebrates the knife it houses.
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Old 05-13-2003, 03:44 PM
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Chuck Burrows Chuck Burrows is offline
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Royal English Oak is imported from one of the premier tanneries in England, with the claim that European cowhides are far freer of scars from insects, cactus and barbed wire than American cattle. It is available through the Texas Wholesale Leather Co at 1 800 477-9923 or at www.TWLeather.com.

Tioga Oak leathers are slow tanned to be sure the tannage is full and consistent, since 1867. They provide Carving, Harness and Skirting leathers. It is available from the M & T Corporation, 221 Augusta National Ct., Franklin TN 37069. Phone 615-646-9900. FAX 615-646-9922. Email: tweberle@tioga-oak.com.

Tioga Oak is the stuff from Germany mentioned in my previous post.It was written up in the May/June 2000 issue of the Journal.


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The beautiful sheaths created for storing the knife elevate the knife one step higher. It celebrates the knife it houses.
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  #14  
Old 05-13-2003, 04:52 PM
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thanx for the time to dig all that up for us, chuck.


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Old 05-13-2003, 05:09 PM
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Chuck Burrows Chuck Burrows is offline
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Not a problem. I sat down to have lunch and grabbed up a bunch of old Journals and the first one I looked at had the article I wanted. That does not usually happen that way!

There was also a blurb in there about the Royal English Oak so I figured I'd throw it in, but I checked their site and it has been sold out and no more vaialabel. BUT they have a lot of other good choices, includign single shoulders for a nice price in their shoulders line. Check them out


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Wild Rose Trading Co - Handcrafted Knife Sheaths



The beautiful sheaths created for storing the knife elevate the knife one step higher. It celebrates the knife it houses.

Last edited by Chuck Burrows; 05-13-2003 at 05:18 PM.
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