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  #1  
Old 12-19-2012, 06:34 AM
jacob7 jacob7 is offline
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forge welding pressure

Trying to make a press to forge weld to make some damascus billets but don't know what ton press I need to get the job done and how long to leave it under the press. Any help would be appreciated. Thanks
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Old 12-19-2012, 06:48 AM
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The weld is not a matter of time being pressed so much as a matter of temperature at the time of pressing. If all is correct the weld will happen with minimal pressure. There are several sites more dedicated to the building of presses for welding damascus. Where you can get greater detailed info than from any forum. Check out ABANA for one, but suggest you do a google. There's a lot more to this than can be addressed in a forum format. I also believe Don Fogg has a section on his website about presses and damascus fabrication.


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  #3  
Old 12-19-2012, 09:19 AM
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Ray Rogers Ray Rogers is offline
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As Carl said, welding is a low pressure operation. Most guys have 20 or 25 ton presses, that's all most of us need to make damascus. During the welding phase though, a very light touch is used and having too much tonnage available can make it harder to control. If you were trying to weld using a hand held hammer you would be using light taps to get two pieces of steel to weld together. Having the temperature correct and just enough pressure to squeeze the billet firmly will get the weld accomplished ...


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Old 06-22-2013, 02:20 AM
raptorvan raptorvan is offline
 
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I am going tk ressurect this thread if you dont mind.

Question(s).
1. And i already probably know the answer but a few guys on a blacksmithing site keep telling me not to use the flux when i make the folds. They say to take it out of the heat, do a quick scrape make the cut, leave a hinge then press the two halves together and dont flux because that will keep it from fusing

HOWEVER i have never in my life heard of that....hell i flux pipe all the time to get the solder to spread out and suck into the joint.

And 2....

After the initial wald is complete and i go to draw the billet out....i cant afford an air hammer yet unless the little harbor freight one works which i dont think it would...of course i dont know how much pressure is needed to draw....anyways i want to build a press. Possibly two jacks with a flat base die welded onto both jack posts to apply even pressure all the way through...how much pressure or how big do (or does) the jack need to be? Ive heard anything from 20 ton to 50 ton to "it isnt feasable to use a hydraulic jack to draw out a billet".

So im asking, since the people on THIS site seem to actually like helping out and sharing info....what kind of setup could i build to draw out a damascus billet?


Oh yeah....also i have a small forge running propane out of a homemade venturi burner...it takes about 20 minutes...well maybe 30.... to get a railroad spike bright red. I did almost get it yellow once but ran out of gas and havent tried it again because it is so inefticient...what can i do to ramp up heat and efficiency? I was thinking of adding maybe a low pressure air rod in the pipe from my compresser...
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Old 06-22-2013, 05:15 AM
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1 - I've always fluxed lightly on the fold, but I've seen it done with out. Studying on doing some "dry welding" in near future, using an industrial strength degreaser instead of flux. Will post results (when I get off dead center and do it). >Soldering pipe joints is not anything like welding steel together. Different principles in physics involved<

2 - Have seen it done with air assisted bottle jack type press. See Ray's comment above about temp verses tonnage.

3 - Something is wrong with the design of your forge dynamics. I use a single venturi burner to run my welding forge and work all day on a 22# (BBQ) tank with residual at the end of the day. Biggest problem is tank freeze so set it in a wash tub of water. I can cherry a rxr spike in 6 min from cold, less than 3 on reheat. Just curious....why do you want to get a spike yellow hot?


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  #6  
Old 06-22-2013, 07:59 AM
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Ray Rogers Ray Rogers is offline
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You said 'folds'. People say that because way back in the dark ages (literally) steel was folded so that carbon could be worked into the steel and impurities could be squeezed out. They didn't have any choice about their process since power tools didn't exist then but you do. If you fold the steel it becomes near impossible to NOT have inclusions in your billet. Or, so as not to step on your blacksmith's toes I'd say impossible to avoid inclusions unless you have great skill at forge welding and are willing to work very hard at it. If you want a clean billet you need to cool the steel (anneal it), saw it into sections, clean each section usually with an angle grinder until all forge scale is removed, stack the pieces and arc weld them to keep them together, then put them back in the forge for the next weld. Use flux to reduce scale formation and keep the steel as clean as possible. Then, using your press, lightly squeeze the billet from one end to the other to start the weld and also to push the flux out of the billet so that none is trapped inside the steel (inclusion).

20 to 25 tons is plenty. Hydraulic bottle jacks will not work, far too slow. Some guys modify the air/hydraulic bottle jack presses and get a useable result but just barely. If you need to build on the cheap, find an old log splitter and modify that, they run fast enough and they have the power. Speed is important: you do not want your press dies in contact with the hot steel any longer than absolutely necessary. That just cools the steel and mangles your dies.

Forges are simple to build and there is plenty of info on this site about how to build them. Scrap that forge of yours and start over ...


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  #7  
Old 06-22-2013, 08:10 AM
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Ed Caffrey Ed Caffrey is offline
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Quote:
1. And i already probably know the answer but a few guys on a blacksmithing site keep telling me not to use the flux when i make the folds. They say to take it out of the heat, do a quick scrape make the cut, leave a hinge then press the two halves together and dont flux because that will keep it from fusing
I started my career as a "Blacksmith" before becoming a "Bladesmith"...with no disrespect intended to anyone, I've come to understand that there is a HUGE difference between the way Blacksmiths do things, versus Bladesmiths. This is mainly due to the materials involved....most Blacksmiths work with mild steel, and have little experience with the higher alloy material used in Bladesmithing. That being said, my recommendation is DO NOT "fold"...but rather draw your billets out....grid both sides clean.....then cut and restack. Folding will get you about a 50-60% success rate. Grinding, cutting and restacking will take you closer to 90-95% success. (cold shuts, inclusions, etc)

The type, amount, and frequency of fluxing is dictated by how well your forge is tuned.

Quote:
After the initial wald is complete and i go to draw the billet out....i cant afford an air hammer yet unless the little harbor freight one works which i dont think it would...of course i dont know how much pressure is needed to draw....anyways i want to build a press. Possibly two jacks with a flat base die welded onto both jack posts to apply even pressure all the way through...how much pressure or how big do (or does) the jack need to be? Ive heard anything from 20 ton to 50 ton to "it isnt feasable to use a hydraulic jack to draw out a billet".

So im asking, since the people on THIS site seem to actually like helping out and sharing info....what kind of setup could i build to draw out a damascus billet?
20-25 tons is about right for a forging press....there are larger and smaller presses that folks use, but outside that 20-25 ton range is dictated by the size/type of billets being forged.
I know some folks who use and air over hydralic setup for small forging presses, but the main complaint I hear from them is it's way too slow, and they very often only get a single "press" in before having to reheat. Here's what you have to realize when using a press.....the more surface area of a billet you try to press, the more tonnage required. Even with the average 20-25 ton forging press, forging must be done by taking "small bites" rather then trying to forge the entire billet at once. You also must consider how the dies on a press well "suck" the heat out of a billet, and increase the difficullity of pressing it. Long story short.....I think you'd be wasting your time/effort/money trying to build a useful forging press using any type of "jack(s)".

It sounds like there is a heat problem with your forge.....with some pics, it impossible to give you any advice on the forge. I can tell you that you'r going to need to be able to reach and maintain 2300F+ in your forge to be able to weld anything. (Personally I run my welding forges at 2350F+)

The best thing to do is get the forge operating correctly, then jump in and start experimenting with forge welding by hand....that will give you some insight into understand how it works, and what you need to be doing.


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  #8  
Old 06-22-2013, 10:08 AM
jdale jdale is offline
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I wish I would have saw this thread before making my air over hydraulic press. I got that, crap I screwed up feeling. Bit once I realised how much log splitters cost I am not upset I made my 20 ton press anymore. I have around $400 into it, and with the pur have of a $15 air piston and a $19 2-way foot pedal I will be able to raise and lower the press hands free. Hopefully the addition will get it close to the speed of a regular hydraulic press
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  #9  
Old 06-22-2013, 09:17 PM
raptorvan raptorvan is offline
 
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Thanks for the info guys. So then the pricipals are a bit different between one trade and the other. I was taught that you should reheat as little as possible...i.e. cooling then restacking. But i have seen BLADESMITHS usually when THEY made a damascus billet often...well...at least half the time do cool it down and cut and grind then re heat it and keep going that way until the layers are achieved then worry about shaping it. I was just worried about any unintended carborization.

As for my forge i dont think the forge is the issue....i will thro up a pic or two once i get on a real computer but it is a small forge made entirely of fire brick and tye interior is encased with refractory cement and a narrow opening in the face to put the pieces in. I think its my burner design or possibly the angle at which it sits. Or the holes i drilled in the pipe near the bell in the back. All i know is that it heats up fast but it doesnt actually seen to be firing the steel very quickly. Maybe it is too indirect?

As for why i wanted my spike at a yellow heat is just because it is easier to work with just a 4lb hammer or blacksmithing hammer....or atleast it seems that way. I havent hit a cherry piece in a while....no i take that back. I whacked the hell out of those HC spikes when it was a bright red and all i did was piss of the neighbors.

ETA this is an after thought disclaimer lol. I live like...5 blocks away from greenfield village (in dearborn mi) if you know of this place you know that it is a very historical and old fashioned place. I used to, when i was a bit younger and before they changed it all, i used to he able to go into the village and their Blacksmithes were the ones i worked with so since they have to be authentic...probably turn of the century or older period...a lot of what they did was probably a bit outdated and probably required more work than it should have been. The rest i self taught but i have only begun to work with finer pieces like small gun parts and blades. And i have seen all these instructionals that have the bladesmith cutting his damascus billet 7/8 through then folding it over to create the next series of layers.

Last edited by raptorvan; 06-22-2013 at 11:33 PM.
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  #10  
Old 06-23-2013, 01:38 AM
raptorvan raptorvan is offline
 
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Well ive decided i know where i went wrong. I built the forge with the burner hole in back instead of up on the top. And its too high so the fire is basically firing the top of my forge and unless i shim the burner it wont even touch the steel. Plus the flame basically hits the front wall and rolls down to the opening. I will patch that up and try it the other way to see if that helps.......actually i might patch the back wall leaving an inlet tube from the air nozzel of my conpressor and build a little adjustable pressing clamp to control tye air flow. Maybe a little blown air will help too...very little blown air though.
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  #11  
Old 06-23-2013, 07:40 AM
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Ray Rogers Ray Rogers is offline
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Brick forges have rectangular or square interiors unless you go to a lot of trouble to re-shape them. Anything but a round interior (or mostly round with a flat bottom) is bad. The burner from the top side center aimed so that the flame follows the rounded interior is the usual thing. The burner should never touch the steel nor even be aimed directly at the steel...


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Old 06-23-2013, 11:26 PM
raptorvan raptorvan is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ray Rogers View Post
Brick forges have rectangular or square interiors unless you go to a lot of trouble to re-shape them. Anything but a round interior (or mostly round with a flat bottom) is bad. The burner from the top side center aimed so that the flame follows the rounded interior is the usual thing. The burner should never touch the steel nor even be aimed directly at the steel...
Oohhhhhhhhhh. Crap. Well....back to the drawing board.

Im sure there is a forge section around here so i wont go into that here. Except to ask where i could find the batting material at a decent price....and also...how do you make firebrick? I keep seeing thesenvideo of all this custom poured firebrick and it all looks really light....i bought mine from a hardware store and it is heavy. 1" thick by 4"x9"
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Old 06-24-2013, 05:01 AM
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Wacking RxR spikes....guess yellow hot won't matter much just a lot of scale build up. Don't work blade quality high carbon at that heat unless you are welding up a billet of damascus. You will ruin the steel and induce large grain growth....all bad for blade quality.

All kinds of things to consider on forge lining material. Hard firebrick will take longer to heat and heatsinks a lot of heat when you start up, however it maintains heat well when it gets there. Soft fire brick acts more like an insulation and the chamber will heat faster but is not as durable so most coat it with a layer of satanite just to rigidize and toughen the interior, same with K-wool. The shape and volume of the interior is just as important as torch placement for designing an efficiently running forge. Ray's advice is spot on.

As far as "decent price", you have to decide what that means. How much time and money have you wasted so far with the incorrect materials? If you want it free, you'll have to do a lot of footwork, smoozing, and looking....not a lot of "Free" out there.

Although there are several good Youtube videos out there, just as many are junk and some will get you hurt....use some discernment here. You can save yourself a lot of time and frustration sticking with simple basics on construction. Forget about "Turbo", "Mongo", "Monster"...... and study designs on Ron Reil's site, Ray's site, Caffery's site....these guys have it "working" with sound info to boot.
You might also want to spend some serious time studying knife blade suitable steels and what controlled thermal cycling does to them. You are a bit "all over the page" from what you have posted so far. Pic one good workable steel, get the basics down, learn the steel and work toward quality results with that steel. You will learn faster and be a much better bladesmith.


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